'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, adb968008 said:

Hattons are selling Hornbys at a discount.

 

for example:

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/stockdetail.aspx?SID=619302

 

Ah, I see. They know what they're worth.

[SHMD]

...yes, yes, yes, but how much are Hornby selling the Hatton's one for?

 

 

Kev.

[PaulRhB]

1 minute ago, Chris116 said:

I am very sorry to have upset the person who I replied to. The other replies were not visible when I started typing or I would not have repeated what they were saying. 

 

In future I will keep my thoughts to myself!

Don’t worry Chris, it’s just the time lag in posting causing confusion that’s sorted.

 

[johnd]

But then with Hornby you may have to buy batteries if not now then some time in the future ! 

[wainwright1]

18 hours ago, johnd said:

But then with Hornby you may have to buy batteries if not now then some time in the future ! 

Yes a couple of quid at Poundland.

[The Stationmaster]

I suspect that in the end as far as informed buyers are concerned it will come down to what is on offer from the two brands.  For example do you want a vehicle with brake gear (beyond the brake shoes) or are you prepared to go without or add it yourself if you want it.  Some choice will no doubt be made on the quality or perceived accuracy (or otherwise) of the livery on offer and as we have already read some people will make a choice based on going for vehicles which look different from those offered by Hattons.

 

There seems to be littel doubt over all that Hornby's commercial idea for these was simply to copy something Hattons had come up with and then rush development through to beat them to market notwithstanding the resultant visible deficiencies in certain parts of their product.  Presumably they took the view  that in that respect a good percentage of the potential customers wouldn't have much idea about those deficiencies so they needn't worry too much about  reverting to 1970s standards and it would save a few quid in costs and help to gain a price advantage.  

[PhilJ W]

Did Hornby copy Hattons? or did they come up with the same idea simultaneously? By what has been said Hornby had something in the pipeline when the Hattons announcement was made. Likewise the Terrier, if you watched the TV program about 18 months ago you will know that the Hornby Terrier was already being worked on when Rails announced their Terrier. Personally I prefer Hornby's way of only announcing some models just before they hit the shelves rather than leaving people guessing as to when it should arrive. Just see how many models slated for delivery in 2020 that haven't arrived yet (And yes that might include some Hornby models.)

[The Stationmaster]

6 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

Did Hornby copy Hattons? or did they come up with the same idea simultaneously? By what has been said Hornby had something in the pipeline when the Hattons announcement was made. Likewise the Terrier, if you watched the TV program about 18 months ago you will know that the Hornby Terrier was already being worked on when Rails announced their Terrier. Personally I prefer Hornby's way of only announcing some models just before they hit the shelves rather than leaving people guessing as to when it should arrive. Just see how many models slated for delivery in 2020 that haven't arrived yet (And yes that might include some Hornby models.)

From what has come from somebody who would have been in the know it seems to be the case that Hornby only decided to go ahead after Hattoms had announced their intentions.  There might possibly have been some earlier work but if there was it would seem to have been shelved some time earlier.

 

What emerged as the Hornby Terrier was originally an Oxford Rail project (possibly not progressing?) and nothing to do with Hornby until their commercial dept picked it up after Rails had announced theirs.  There had, so i understand been no recent work within Hornby on a Terrier and whatever had been done some time previously had never progressed to full development work and never did due to lack of commercial interest within the company.   An odd thing about all of Hornby's Terrier models is that none of them have had the original design work done within the company although there have been some imprivements made to both of the designs which have come from elsewhere, including the most recent one.

[Bucoops]

Shame the GER ones are delayed - kind of hoping that the market (ebay!?) gets flooded with D&S kits I can get cheap lol

[adb968008]

Careful not to assume Hattons work started on the day they announced it.

They could have also been working on it prior to announcement.

 

Regardless,

 

The sad thing is now, that we as modellers will get less input to new models, as for comissioners, will need to play cards closer to their chest for much longer, to avoid Hornby having a “cheap me too” moment.

 

It could however work both ways...

A commissioner who has kept schtum, would do well to release painted EPs in the next couple of days.. as Hornbys bed has been well and truly made, and they have headway to get deliveries in place, without fear of “an instantly available mid-year announcement”...

for instance today would be a great day to see 31 liveries of class 31 EPs running in circles.

Edited January 7, 2021 by adb968008

[Miss Prism]

45 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Careful not to assume Hattons work started on the day they announced it.

They could have also been working on it prior to announcement.

 

They certainly were. It is clear from the OP announcement (8 October 2019) the CADs were already at a reasonably developed stage.

 

[RJS1977]

Personally I don't have an issue with a "cheap me too" option (or a "more expensive me too" option for that matter) provided that

 

(a) There is a significant price differential (more than just £1)

(b) The difference in price is reflected in the level of detail so that the cheap version doesn't take too much trade away from the more expensive one. Note that I am talking about difference in detail, not quality. I'm not calling for a return to pizza cutter wheels, but things like simpler liveries, fewer interchangeable parts etc.

 

There will always be some modellers who are less well off than others, and a "cheap me too" range can enable them to get in on the fun without breaking the bank. 

[Pre Grouping fan]

48 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

 

They certainly were. It is clear from the OP announcement (8 October 2019) the CADs were already at a reasonably developed stage.

 

Weren't they just livery drawings? They were modified a lot using feedback on here and elsewhere. We only saw complete cads when they showed the 3D models last year after months of nothing. 

 

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

months of nothing. 

 

Months of hard work. Not that long, actually - April as I recall, so only six months after the announcement. A Bachmann project (for instance) can be quiet for much, much longer!

[Miss Prism]

Although many details were still being thrashed out at the time, detailed 3D CADs were in existence in late-November 2019.

 

[Pre Grouping fan]

18 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Months of hard work. Not that long, actually - April as I recall, so only six months after the announcement. A Bachmann project (for instance) can be quiet for much, much longer!

OK nothing was the wrong word to use, I know work would be going on behind closed doors. 

I also know the long periods of quiet for Bachmann models well. 

[Les1952]

On 06/01/2021 at 16:17, adb968008 said:

Ive got de ja vu now.

 

 

 

again?

[RJS1977]

35 minutes ago, Les1952 said:

 

again?

 

You can't get de ja vu for the first time.

I think when you get de ja vu for the first time, it's really the second time.

 

You can't get de ja vu for the first time.

I think when you get de ja vu for the first time, it's really the second time.

[Shanghai Diver]

Hattons are a single point of distribution (at least I am not aware of being able to buy Hattons products outside of the Hattons ecosystem).  Whilst they are very well known, they are not known to everyone. Hornby awareness, 99%? Hattons as a retailer, 75%? As a manufacturer? 45% (probably generous across the entire base)? Hornby have 99% distribution across all outlets. Walking into Alton or Eastleigh, Rails or wherever, Hornby are there. It is that  passing trade Hattons don't get (OK, stores shut for now).

 

Whilst it looks cheeky, there is some wonderful share of market stuff going on here and consumer market segmentations.  As the category leader, the (possibly cheeky look) work Hornby have done will almost certainly lift the entire 4 / 6 wheeler segment.  Which is good. The market becomes bigger, more people are satisfied and all parties benefit.  4/6 wheelers are going to take a much larger share of passenger stock in 2021 than before. Passenger stock likely to be bigger share of total category, because of.

 

I struggle to see significant numbers who have a preorder in with Hattons cancelling (I am not, and I have Hattons providing a role for me  as being more detail orientated vs the more mainstream compromises of Hornby which I buy other stuff from, ditto others) and any cancellations will likely be picked up by people who go for Hornby and "trading up" to Hattons. There his one element of the Hornby range I do like, but is on the back burner for me.

 

Whilst Hornby are not P&G they are savvy enough to do their consumer segmentation.  They'll have clearly identified all this, what shares of segments are (one hopes they are not flying blind) and know perfectly well they aren't getting 100%.   

 

The only thing I remained surprised by is Hornby's price point ...and Hattons.  One is higher and one is lower. And that will play to Hattons nicely (perceived value vs price point).

 

Ultimately, I am really excited by this in what might be for a rather dull Hornby 2021 range for me personally.  But if Hornby are riding 2020 growth hard, new found enthusiasm and driving momentum through a vast launch (assuming it all gets to market, ahem) it's good for everyone. Bachman, Dapol, Peco, SMS, TMC, retailers, and all the adjacent parts etc. 

 

Could make for a good bus. school case study come 2022.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Shanghai Diver

[johnhutnick]

I am in the US and may view models somewhat differently than the average person here.  

First, charging batteries is for me insignificant.  I run a train for a while, it lights up, I am happy.  Will never get charged.

On a layout, the Hornby brake baggage will look different.  Otherwise, each of the other Hattons and Hornby coaches versions will appear to me similar.  Details for more or less are not that important to me.

So now when will someone manufacture a GWR Duke or Metro or 517 ?

[SRman]

6 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

 

You can't get de ja vu for the first time.

I think when you get de ja vu for the first time, it's really the second time.

 

You can't get de ja vu for the first time.

I think when you get de ja vu for the first time, it's really the second time.

I knew you were going to say that!  

[JSpencer]

5 hours ago, Shanghai Diver said:

Hattons are a single point of distribution (at least I am not aware of being able to buy Hattons products outside of the Hattons ecosystem).  Whilst they are very well known, they are not known to everyone. Hornby awareness, 99%? Hattons as a retailer, 75%? As a manufacturer? 45% (probably generous across the entire base)? Hornby have 99% distribution across all outlets. Walking into Alton or Eastleigh, Rails or wherever, Hornby are there. It is that  passing trade Hattons don't get (OK, stores shut for now).

 

Whilst it looks cheeky, there is some wonderful share of market stuff going on here and consumer market segmentations.  As the category leader, the (possibly cheeky look) work Hornby have done will almost certainly lift the entire 4 / 6 wheeler segment.  Which is good. The market becomes bigger, more people are satisfied and all parties benefit.  4/6 wheelers are going to take a much larger share of passenger stock in 2021 than before. Passenger stock likely to be bigger share of total category, because of.

 

 

The two big players are defending ground in a saturated market. There is so much stuff now that I go "that's nice but don't really need it as X is doing something else more suitable for me". Where as in the past, there was no such much choice announced.

Hornby not only need to defend ground but equally remain the main player bringing new blood into the hobby. The market dying out serves no one even big shops like Hattons.

Now generics are being done by two companies, there success could lead to accurate models of 4/6 wheel coaches.

[truffy]

9 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

 

You can't get de ja vu for the first time.

I think when you get de ja vu for the first time, it's really the second time.

 

You can't get de ja vu for the first time.

I think when you get de ja vu for the first time, it's really the second time.

@Les1952 was referencing Yogi Berra’s famous quote “it’s deja vu all over again”

[Nile]

6 hours ago, Shanghai Diver said:

Hattons are a single point of distribution (at least I am not aware of being able to buy Hattons products outside of the Hattons ecosystem).

You've not looked very hard then. This was why Bachmann got the hump with them.

Hattons at Rails

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, Nile said:

You've not looked very hard then. This was why Bachmann got the hump with them.

Hattons at Rails

Not to mention Kernow.