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'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement


Hattons Dave
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18 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Interesting. What do you have in mind there? 

 

 

I can't get the SMJR 27'6" composites 6-9 and thirds 11-13 and saloon 10 out of my mind. No.10 done with a bit of choping of an all third to represent the removed brake compartment and subsequent oddball window arrangement of the real thing. Yes they were 6 wheelers on the SMJ, but the Hattons 4w bodies are actually very close, so I'm tempted for a bit of chassis bashing and running with a loaned 1532 for something VERY different to what everyone else is going to do with these coaches. ;)

Edited by Zunnan
lumped the thirds in with the composites...corrected!
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2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

These are inaccurate models of figments of somebodies imagination. They don't even compare.

Ok I think everyone is well aware of this as it’s being repeated at least once a page ;)

Let’s just leave people to decide from the posts here if it’s a compromise they are happy with. The info is there in both the Hattons & Hornby threads so just direct them to read it, if they can’t be bothered then they aren’t going to worry. If a prototypical version is so certain to sell why have two big players taken the same decisions?  
A far more useful answer to all these questions would be to create threads about the real prototype coaches that people could be directed to rather than it being buried in hundreds of posts about these models. 
Just an idea. 
 

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Threads on the each of the big four and their constituents for coaching would give very useful references and five threads, to include BR,  would be far less muddled than it’s getting on here and be relevant to all coaches as any model released could be referenced to specific posts within those threads. There’s some fantastic info on design, panelling, liveries and even lighting in here but it’s getting harder to find each company. 

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24 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Threads on the each of the big four and their constituents for coaching would give very useful references and five threads, to include BR,  would be far less muddled than it’s getting on here and be relevant to all coaches as any model released could be referenced to specific posts within those threads. There’s some fantastic info on design, panelling, liveries and even lighting in here but it’s getting harder to find each company. 

 

I think what you propose is really beyond the scope of RMWeb and would be unwieldly. It's bad enough having separate topics on the Hattons and Hornby carriages! But at least these make it easy to make comparisons between the stock of different companies.

 

If one really wants to find out about the carriage stock of the individual companies, there are works of reference around. The following companies' carriages have been covered pretty comprehensively:

Midland

LNWR

GWR

GNR

Caledonian 

LSWR

LBSCR

... and possibly others.

It's also well worth joining the relevant line society. They will have more information available and your subscription will contribute to supporting members' efforts to put more material into the public domain.

 

Edited by Compound2632
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54 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Ok I think everyone is well aware of this as it’s being repeated at least once a page ;)

Let’s just leave people to decide from the posts here if it’s a compromise they are happy with. The info is there in both the Hattons & Hornby threads so just direct them to read it, if they can’t be bothered then they aren’t going to worry. If a prototypical version is so certain to sell why have two big players taken the same decisions?  
A far more useful answer to all these questions would be to create threads about the real prototype coaches that people could be directed to rather than it being buried in hundreds of posts about these models. 
Just an idea. 
 

 

Why edit out the rest so it's taken out of context?

 

Perhaps it would be better to point your ire at the poster who ridiculed the Lima model rather than shooting the messenger....

 

I let people decide a long time ago. Why would they listen to me anyway?

 

But if people are going to post inaccurate information then surely I've got the right to point out that it's wrong?

 

 

Jason

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8 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Why edit out the rest so it's taken out of context?

 

Perhaps it would be better to point your ire at the poster who ridiculed the Lima model rather than shooting the messenger....

 

I let people decide a long time ago. Why would they listen to me anyway?

 

But if people are going to post inaccurate information then surely I've got the right to point out that it's wrong?

 

 

Jason

I was responding to the specific point about these being generic though it’s not intended as a dig at you so sorry if it seemed that, as I pointed out it’s being repeated so frequently that they are generic. The Lima coaches were a lot closer to reality than most of these liveries are I agree. 
 

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

inaccurate models of figments of somebodies imagination

This made me smile to be honest ;) how can it be an inaccurate model of a figment of imagination? Maybe or instead of ‘of’ 

The point I was trying to make is it’s going in circles on the generic vs accurate and possibly a threads on the big four plus BR might be more useful. 
 

16 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I think what you propose is really beyond the scope of RMWeb and would be unwieldly. It's bad enough having separate topics on the Hattons and Hornby carriages!

True but maybe threads that just direct people to the appropriate reference sites and books would be sufficient?

 

On another forum we created a index to decoder fitting that worked very well in a similar way and even when the forum was ended people saved and transferred it all to the new one as a result. It’s not easy or quick but it does give easy points of reference rather than repeating it every time a new model comes out in separate threads :) 

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14 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

how can it be an inaccurate model of a figment of imagination? Maybe or instead of ‘of’ 

[...] generic vs accurate

 

That doesn't have to be a dichotomy. The Genesis carriages are representative of carriage-building practice in the 80s and 90s - accurate in the sense that they embody widely-used features and eschew anything esoteric or unusual. There should be nothing about them that shouts "impossible" or even "unlikely". (Until one starts putting them into specific liveries, of course!) They're certainly not "figments of the imagination" but grounded in observation of the prototype. In that respect, from what I have seen, the Hattons carriages are accurate and the Hornby ones inaccurate.

 

14 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

True but maybe threads that just direct people to the appropriate reference sites and books would be sufficient?

 

The sorts of questions that are being asked need specific answers; one would need to refer to chapter and page. 

Edited by Compound2632
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34 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Perhaps it would be better to point your ire at the poster who ridiculed the Lima model rather than shooting the messenger....

 

 

Go on then, I'll play ball.

 

I'm not denying that they look like a Mk1. Ish. Everything about them makes me think of the Hornby 4w and 6w announcement. As I said, from my perspective you can see what they're meant to be but they fall short at so many hurdles.

 

One size fits all roof.

One size fits all chassis.

One size fits all coach ends, with spurious water filler pipes. Everywhere.

Incorrect buffers shared with many many other models in the range.

Gangway bellows.

Rainstrips.

Lack of guttering.

Leap of faith for detraining passengers (no footboards)

Decide on a paint finish! (3 different shades of red for maroon coaches alone)

Growth hormone afflicted full brake (*cough* Hornby 4w brake)...I'll give up the chase there.

 

The Hattons coaches look feasibly correct. No, they don't match a specific prototype. But they follow well defined practices that result in a plausible vehicle. Hornby with their 4 and 6 wheelers (and the Lima Mk1) take a defined design, then start playing Mr Potato Head with the finer details.

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One thing that does make it hard to keep track of the pre-grouping carriage information is filling up the thread with discussion of models of Mk 1 carriages, which are after all the antithesis of the 19th century 6-wheeler!

 

Perhaps they could go and find their own thread.

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46 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The sorts of questions that are being asked need specific answers; one would need to refer to chapter and page. 

Yep but they could be answered in a post in a thread like I suggested and then the response here linked to that post ;) I know it’s a bit more fuss but it worked well on the G forum that’s all and kept it much easier to find as it was all together rather than spread between umpteen individual model threads as you’ve already noted with these two manufacturers generic ones. 
Just an idea based on previous experience that’s all. 

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15 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Yep but they could be answered in a post in a thread like I suggested and then the response here linked to that post ;) I know it’s a bit more fuss but it worked well on the G forum that’s all and kept it much easier to find as it was all together rather than spread between umpteen individual model threads as you’ve already noted with these two manufacturers generic ones. 
Just an idea based on previous experience that’s all. 

For those interested in the LNWR carriages, the LNWR Society has sections in it's website on carriages;

 

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Carriages/index.php

 

and 4mm models (although these are all kits with no RTR available)

 

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Modelling/4mm.php

 

For those who wish to get detailed information it is worth getting;

 

LNWR Non-Corridor Carriages (listed as LNWRS Portfolio #19 at £9.90)

and 

LNWR 30' 1" Six- Wheeled Carriages; (listed under books at £15.00, half the original published price)

 

both published by the LNWR Society.

Edited by Jol Wilkinson
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On 09/01/2021 at 21:20, Compound2632 said:

One thing that does make it hard to keep track of the pre-grouping carriage information is filling up the thread with discussion of models of Mk 1 carriages, which are after all the antithesis of the 19th century 6-wheeler!

 

Perhaps they could go and find their own thread.

 

I agree the Mark 1 is best discussed elsewhere- but 

 

Great grandson rather than antithesis.

 

You can trace a development through Victorian 6-wheelers to bogie stock then adding in corridoors etc via the Mark 1 to the present middle cars on AZumas etc.

 

Les

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4 hours ago, Les1952 said:

 

I agree the Mark 1 is best discussed elsewhere- but 

 

Great grandson rather than antithesis.

 

You can trace a development through Victorian 6-wheelers to bogie stock then adding in corridoors etc via the Mark 1 to the present middle cars on AZumas etc.

 

 

Well, they're all carriages. But antithesis in the sense of bland uniformity vs. infinite variety.

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Just a thought.  If these take off and sell like the proverbial hot cakes (and of course we all hope they do, don't we?), would that encourage Hattons to look at, say, 50' non-corridor bogie carriages in a like manner?

Edited by James Harrison
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28 minutes ago, James Harrison said:

Just a thought.  If these take off and sell like the proverbial hot cakes (and of course we all hope they do, don't we?), would that encourage Hattons to look at, say, 50' non-corridor bogie carriages in a like manner?

 

This was discussed somewhere up-thread. I was arguing for slightly shorter: 42ft - 44ft, i.e. 7-compartment thirds rather than 8-compartment thirds. That would be more 1880s/90s matching the 6-wheelers. 50ft or thereabouts smacks too much of c. 1900 onwards suburban sets.

 

A brake composite - with or without lavatories - is of course de rigueur

Edited by Compound2632
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59 minutes ago, James Harrison said:

Being purely selfish, 50' suburbans I'd buy two or three rakes of, 42- 44' carriages I might two or three examples of

 

Quite so. The sort of suburban sets I have in mind typically ran to seven, eight, or nine carriages - which would appeal to a manufacturer, I'm sure. A set of L&Y 49 ft carriages would go very well with the Bachmann Aspinall tank.

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3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Quite so. The sort of suburban sets I have in mind typically ran to seven, eight, or nine carriages - which would appeal to a manufacturer, I'm sure. A set of L&Y 49 ft carriages would go very well with the Bachmann Aspinall tank.

That is precisely my plan.

Though I am biased, I have an A, 2x 0-6-0ST rebuilds, a Dreadnought, 2xDreadnought tanks as well as the Aspinalls... oh and pugs.

:D
 

The A class 0-6-0 is a class much overdue to be modelled.

 

L&Y has some very fanciful stock...Butter Vans, Pigeon carriers, corpse wagon ! I’m surprised some of these havent been outed, even as kits.

Edited by adb968008
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7 hours ago, adb968008 said:

That is precisely my plan.

Though I am biased, I have an A, 2x 0-6-0ST rebuilds, a Dreadnought, 2xDreadnought tanks as well as the Aspinalls... oh and pugs.

:D
 

The A class 0-6-0 is a class much overdue to be modelled.

 

L&Y has some very fanciful stock...Butter Vans, Pigeon carriers, corpse wagon ! I’m surprised some of these havent been outed, even as kits.

don't forget the 30 ton wagons 

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On 12/01/2021 at 04:33, James Harrison said:

Just a thought.  If these take off and sell like the proverbial hot cakes (and of course we all hope they do, don't we?), would that encourage Hattons to look at, say, 50' non-corridor bogie carriages in a like manner?

 

Do we have the stamina for another 100+ page thread?

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Is there any evidence to suggest that there's any shortage among us of those who would need to make fanciful, off-topic, un-informed or factually incorrect statements and to otherwise "prattle on" to the extent necessary to help to fill 100+ pages?

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2 hours ago, bingley hall said:

Do we have the stamina for another 100+ page thread?

 

As I pointed out, this had already been discussed up-thread. 

 

But that's no real excuse for not returning to the subject!

 

1 minute ago, gr.king said:

Is there any evidence to suggest that there's any shortage among us of those who would need to make fanciful, off-topic, un-informed or factually incorrect statements and to otherwise "prattle on" to the extent necessary to help to fill 100+ pages?

 

No.

 

But if you have any evidence that I've made a factually incorrect statement please do let me know as I'm always willing to learn.

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3 hours ago, bingley hall said:

 

Do we have the stamina for another 100+ page thread?

It could all be put in ten pages or less.

49 minutes ago, gr.king said:

Is there any evidence to suggest that there's any shortage among us of those who would need to make fanciful, off-topic, un-informed or factually incorrect statements and to otherwise "prattle on" to the extent necessary to help to fill 100+ pages?

No.

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