RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted January 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 13, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, PhilJ W said: It could all be put in ten pages or less. Only if people were prepared to check beforehand that the point they were raising or the opinion they were offering was (a) factually correct and (b) not already raised and answered. Anyway, I've had some fun along the way. 6 minutes ago, PhilJ W said: No. Case in point: I had already given the same answer to the question! Edited January 13, 2021 by Compound2632 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Popular Post Hattons Dave Posted January 14, 2021 Author RMweb Gold Popular Post Share Posted January 14, 2021 Hi all, Here's our completed colour layouts for the final Batch 2 livery - the London & South Western Railway. The LSWR had a very distinctive livery with Salmon Pink upper panels and 'Invisible Green' lower sides. It was seen from the 1880s right through until the formation of the Southern Railway in 1923. As with other liveries, there are variations in running numbers as well as a 4-pack with their own numbers too. Check out all the colour layouts and pre-order yours now: Hattons Originals Genesis LSWR coaches. Cheers, Dave 25 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinnylinny Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 They look very nice, and quite similar to the 1879 block set (4-wheelers) and 1900/1901 block set carriages (6-wheelers, excepting the brake 3rd), if you ignore the duckets being the wrong shape, and the 6-wheelers having arc rather than elliptical roofs. However, I think you must be getting confused with livery colours - the LSWR livery was "Salmon and brown" (c.f. Weddell "LSWR Carriages", "Southern Style" and "HMRS Livery Register"). Invisible green was a Cambrian Railway loco livery! 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 14, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 14, 2021 In the end the comparison between the long period of development (including RMweb input) of the Hattons' coaches and the clearly rushed Hornby version is going to come down to what the buyer wants in a generic vehicle. I think in most cases the buyers will accept generic coaches because they appreciate there is little or no chance of getting an accurate for their chosen cpmpany vehicle in r-t-r form and they might not be prepared or able to go down the pathe of using kits (assuming kits are available for the Company of their choosing). So how do you choose between Hattons and Hornby? Well inevitably in some respects it might be a subjective choice but if you want some decent detail - such as having the correct parts which make the brakes work in the real world - you will opt for the Hattons models whch are streets ahead of Hornby in respect of detail to a far greater extent than the lower Hornby price would seem to reflect. And in their overall appearance the Hattons vehicles have the advantage of reflecting the work that has gone in to achieving that. If you want cheaper and cheerful and are happy with near naked undergubbins and various other errors of detail you will probably go for Hornby. And if you're prepared, or want, to do some modelling for yourself to put in the bits Hornby have missed out there's probably more 'modelling fun' in the Hornby version. Thus in some respects there is really no competition between the two; you pays your money and you makes your choice - for either a comptrehensively detailed vehicle or one which isn't. 11 7 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted January 14, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 14, 2021 Seeing those coaches in the salmon livery of the LSWR reminds me of the beautiful, old luggage van that's used to serve as holiday accommodation at St German's station. https://www.railholiday.co.uk/olv.htm 7 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted January 14, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 14, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, AVS1998 said: Now to get onto the SECR Society and ask my contacts what we think the diagram is... Because I don't know, myself. With square-cornered panelling, it's presumably ex-LCDR. (I suspect it's also shorter - nearer 30ft than 32ft.) I wish you joy of chiselling all the round corners out of the panelling on the Genesis carriage! Edited January 14, 2021 by Compound2632 1 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted January 14, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 14, 2021 (edited) I think it must be a D&S kit. The list I have - which I think may have been the last, Spring 2005 - lists a range of LCDR 6-wheelers: a 30ft brake third and a third, composite, and brake, all 28ft. Edited January 14, 2021 by Compound2632 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Holliday Posted January 15, 2021 Share Posted January 15, 2021 14 hours ago, The Stationmaster said: If you want cheaper and cheerful and are happy with near naked undergubbins and various other errors of detail you will probably go for Hornby. And if you're prepared, or want, to do some modelling for yourself to put in the bits Hornby have missed out there's probably more 'modelling fun' in the Hornby version. Thus in some respects there is really no competition between the two; you pays your money and you makes your choice - for either a comptrehensively detailed vehicle or one which isn't. Although some of the comments are reasonable, it is a bit unfair to criticise the "naked undergubbins" as that is one area where Hornby have got things right - at least from an LBSCR perspective. They have gone with the superior Westinghouse brakes, as adopted by the LBSC and a few sensible other companies, which used a small horizontal actuating cylinder which sat neatly under the floor, with little visible below the solebar line. The Genesis range started with Westinghouse brakes, as per the first drawings, but Hatton's were pointed at vacuum brakes, with a vertical actuating cylinder and plenty of visible cranks, as that was the system more commonly used, and thus arguably more generic. 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted January 15, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 15, 2021 1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said: Although some of the comments are reasonable, it is a bit unfair to criticise the "naked undergubbins" as that is one area where Hornby have got things right - at least from an LBSCR perspective. They have gone with the superior Westinghouse brakes, as adopted by the LBSC and a few sensible other companies, which used a small horizontal actuating cylinder which sat neatly under the floor, with little visible below the solebar line. The Genesis range started with Westinghouse brakes, as per the first drawings, but Hatton's were pointed at vacuum brakes, with a vertical actuating cylinder and plenty of visible cranks, as that was the system more commonly used, and thus arguably more generic. It's often not appreciated just how skimpy the underside of a 19th century railway vehicle was. With carriages, lower stepboards tend to disguise this (not on the Hornby models) but without electric or gas lighting, and before the 1890s, often without continuous brakes - or brakes of any sort except on brake vehicles, there's nothing there apart from the running gear. At least a wagon would have a lump of wood on a stick, at a minimum! This has a major implication for RTR stock with any of the usual coupling types - the extraneous block sticking down at each end is much more noticeable than on a BR standard wagon with brakes both sides and maybe vacuum cylinder et al. The Westinghouse brake might have been more widely adopted if it had not been for George Westinghouse's business practices. The Midland was well on the way to becoming a Westinghouse line in the early 80s but got into a court case over defective fittings, which led to the adoption of the vacuum brake - the first major line to do so, with the result that the universal pipe-coupler developed by S.W. Johnson and T.G. Clayton became the industry standard. The story of F.W. Webb's response to George Westinghouse's attempted bribery is well known. Once both the Midland and LNWR had adopted the automatic vacuum brake, the die was cast; lesser companies not already committed had to follow suit. It was also cheaper. 1 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 15, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 15, 2021 4 hours ago, Nick Holliday said: Although some of the comments are reasonable, it is a bit unfair to criticise the "naked undergubbins" as that is one area where Hornby have got things right - at least from an LBSCR perspective. They have gone with the superior Westinghouse brakes, as adopted by the LBSC and a few sensible other companies, which used a small horizontal actuating cylinder which sat neatly under the floor, with little visible below the solebar line. The Genesis range started with Westinghouse brakes, as per the first drawings, but Hatton's were pointed at vacuum brakes, with a vertical actuating cylinder and plenty of visible cranks, as that was the system more commonly used, and thus arguably more generic. The 'undergubbins' are indeed naked as every view we have so far seen shows. Quite how a (limited) representation of Westinghouse brake gear underneath the vehicle goes with vacuum pipes at the end of it works I'm not really sure? And only a few of the liveries the vehicles come with represent lines which used the Westinghouse brake (LB&SCR, BR ER exGER, and NBR until 1910). So your final comment applies equally to the Hornby version - the majority of them represent lines using the vacuum brake although, as I said, modellers can obviously add detail. As Compound 2632 has pointed out early coaching stock vehicles came with virtually nothing below the solebar. But,as the Hattons version represents, this changed as time passed and of course from 1889 it became a legal requirement to fit an automatic continuous brake to passenger coaching stock although many railways were well ahead of that in fitting their passenger carrying vehicles. As I said previously the choice really depends how much detail you want and whether you are happy to pay a bit extra for the considerable amount extra which the Hattons vehicles will offer - simple as that. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Popular Post Phil Parker Posted January 15, 2021 Administrators Popular Post Share Posted January 15, 2021 I've borrowed the pre-production coaches for a look: Please note that when I say the coaches are on the boat, there was some miscommunication. The painted samples should appear early February, with the production models on sale in Q2. 8 4 16 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted January 15, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 15, 2021 Looking very nice. I can even feel myself weakening despite my best resolutions! Please excuse the following didactic remark - those who dislike such things are strongly encouraged to move on swiftly: @Phil Parker, you mentioned that the 6-wheeler doesn't use the Cleminson system for the underframe, which pivots the outer axles so that all axles can move to follow the of the curve - ideally keeping the axles perpendicular to the centre-line of the track. Whilst this system, or variants of it such as the one-and-a-half bogie arrangement, are often used on model 6-wheelers, on the prototype it was very rarely used on standard gauge vehicles. It was popular for narrow-gauge 6-wheelers, narrow gauge lines often having tighter curves than would be found on standard gauge lines. Standard gauge vehicles normally just had side-play on the centre axle. So in this respect, the Hattons carriages follow prototype practice (although having the axleguards etc. move isn't prototypical). Nevertheless, it's impressive that the model can be got to go round such a ridiculously tight curve! It would be interesting to see a photo of one standing on a radius 2 curve, from the outside of the curve, so one could see how noticeable the displacement of the centre axle unit is. 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northroader Posted January 15, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 15, 2021 Very cute little coach, why not in O? One small detail, the four wheeler came with gas lighting detail on the roof, so piping to and from lamps exits over one end of the roof, to register with pipe running up the end of the coach, opposite end to steps. As unpacked from wherever, and as repacked by your good self, the roof is ar*e backwards. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pre Grouping fan Posted January 15, 2021 Share Posted January 15, 2021 Just now, Northroader said: Very cute little coach, why not in O? One small detail, the four wheeler came with gas lighting detail on the roof, so piping to and from lamps exits over one end of the roof, to register with pipe running up the end of the coach, opposite end to steps. As unpacked from wherever, and as repacked by your good self, the roof is ar*e backwards. Dapol are producing proper Stroudley coaches in O gauge throughout their lifespan which probably inspired Hattons and probably Hornby to do some in OO. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted January 15, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 15, 2021 10 minutes ago, Pre Grouping fan said: Dapol are producing proper Stroudley coaches in O gauge throughout their lifespan which probably inspired Hattons and probably Hornby to do some in OO. Question is, is there any market for improper (generic) carriages in 7 mm scale? Yes, since Connoisseur Models (Jim McGowan) do brass kits marketed as such - based closely on S&DJR prototypes, at least for the 6-wheelers. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northroader Posted January 15, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 15, 2021 14 minutes ago, Pre Grouping fan said: Dapol are producing proper Stroudley coaches in O gauge throughout their lifespan which probably inspired Hattons and probably Hornby to do some in OO. Announced 2019, appearing ? http://www.tower-models.com/towermodels/ogauge/Dapol/dapolcoaches/stroudley/index.htm 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Northroader Posted January 15, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 15, 2021 I suppose the point I was trying to make, was in RTR. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted January 15, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 15, 2021 5 minutes ago, Northroader said: Announced 2019, appearing ? http://www.tower-models.com/towermodels/ogauge/Dapol/dapolcoaches/stroudley/index.htm A little disturbing that one of their photos is of a Chatham carriage* when these models are avowedly of a Brighton prototype! *with completely different panelling... 1 minute ago, Northroader said: I suppose the point I was trying to make, was in RTR. If there's a market for generic kits, there's almost certainly a market for reasonably-priced ready-made ones. Ideal for dabblers in O with limited space! Miners/works train with the Ixion Hudswell Clarke. (What I'm not really aware of is the range of etched brass kits for pre-grouping carriages in 7 mm scale; I have a suspicion it's not as wide as in 4 mm?) 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Nile Posted January 15, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 15, 2021 21 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: Question is, is there any market for improper (generic) carriages in 7 mm scale? Yes, since Connoisseur Models (Jim McGowan) do brass kits marketed as such - based closely on S&DJR prototypes, at least for the 6-wheelers. Darstaed had this covered with their tinplate coaches. 2 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted January 15, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 15, 2021 23 minutes ago, Northroader said: Announced 2019, appearing ? 2021, As in the ad pictures they are tooled , I guess waiting decorated ones and then production amongst the current chaos. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted January 15, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 15, 2021 2 hours ago, Nile said: Darstaed had this covered with their tinplate coaches. They could have printed the Midland/LMS clerestories with square-cornered panelling - they got the configuration of compartments right on all but one. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Nile Posted January 15, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 15, 2021 There is also this range of resin parts, some freelance and some real. This sort of thing would be handy in 4mm scale. 3 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted January 15, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 15, 2021 33 minutes ago, Nile said: There is also this range of resin parts, The Hull & Barnsley ones would pass for LCDR - in reality, the relationship was the other way round, William Kirtley having been consultant to the H&B. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erixtar1992 Posted January 15, 2021 Share Posted January 15, 2021 Crossing fingers that we do see batch 3 eventually. i really want to try the Metropolitan Railway versions! 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted January 15, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 15, 2021 Wouldn't the door tops be wrong for the Metropolitan Railway? 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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