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'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement


Hattons Dave
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@Dunsignalling Well, there you go. Something I've learned today as I never knew the provenance of the GF coaches. I don't even recall when I bought them - though I think one of the packing boxes (very flimsy) still has a price ticket that may give a clue. Only saw them the once - perhaps being 'generic' that's why!

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

PS: Out here in the sticks of eastern France, I would be exceedingly surprised if anyone would spot that it was a complete consist of 'generic' coaches - schtum is the word.

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On 16/01/2021 at 12:40, Compound2632 said:

The semicircular parts standing proud are the ventilator hoods.

 

The Hattons Genesis carriages are no more accurate as Metropolitan carriages than they are as Great Northern or Lancashire & Yorkshire carriages, to mention a couple of outliers among the proposed liveries. 

I think the main issue with the Metropolitan 6-Wheelers is that the Metropolitan never had any 6-Wheelers...

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2 hours ago, Skinnylinny said:

I also note that LSWR duckets had a distinctive ogee shape at the top, which required a bit more height, so the quarter-light-level panels were less tall to allow for this - this would be tricky to do without a complete replacement of the ducket. 

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/710042704884793414/800356990064263188/20210117_133158.jpg

 

Yes, looking through the collection of Weddell drawings from magazines that I have, it does seem that shape was already established in the days when the LSW was still building arc-roof carriages. But the LSWR lining isn't that complex, so should present no great challenge to you. Anyway, I'd expect you to be printing your own replacement duckets or, better, accurate carriages!

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32 minutes ago, phil gollin said:

I know that this is the "wrong" thread, but surely Hornby could produce their clerestories in other companies' colours ?

 

They have done - both the non-corridor shorties and the corridor blankies appeared masquerading as Midland clerestories. (The horror! The horror!) The shorties have had a long afterlife in faux teak, as LNER ex-GER carriages but perhaps their greatest honour is to have been repainted by Peter Denny as GCR carriages.

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16 minutes ago, sandwich station said:

 

They also appeared in crimson and cream under Hornby a few years back.

One feels that Rules 1(a), 1(b) and 1(c) plus sub-clauses may apply.....let's just play trains....

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3 minutes ago, AVS1998 said:

They are generic but the corridor coaches from the Farish range bear a strong resemblance to Maunsell stock, notably the ex-SECR corridor third and the R1 8' 6'' brake third, albeit abbreviated and with incorrect corridor window heights. I made a go of converting the two types to better represent the prototypes but didn't get very far. 

 

I bought one in LMS livery as an innocent teenager but even as a callow youth who scorned all things Southern I could see what was up and repainted it green. As I recall, it ran much more freely than my Triang-Hornby Mk1s. I still have it somewhere...

 

5 minutes ago, AVS1998 said:

A resurgence of the cottage industry would be fabulous to see. 

 

The cottage industry is alive and well. I'm not certain many of the cottagers actually live in such picturesque accommodation, though, the way house prices have gone in the last quarter-century.

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With a bit of work the Farish generic stock can also produce half-decent GCR matchboard stock as their overall appearance is about right (it's just scratching in the matchboarding is a bit tedious). 

 

Keeping on-thread with the Hattons carriages, I'm very much looking forward to getting my GNR-liveried 6-wheelers.  I'll probably be removing the insignia and lettering with T-cut and then scumbling over the teak finish to get closer to the GCR dark teak/ not quite mahogany livery. 

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1 hour ago, sandwich station said:

 

They also appeared in crimson and cream under Hornby a few years back.

 

The weird thing was that the "teakies" appeared with an LNER livery B12, and the blood'n'custard efforts with a sort of BR "Express Blue"liveried B12...

 

At least the (old tooling) B12s were Chinese manufactured, so they had fairly fine wheel rims and coupling rods, and the lining was more effectively applied than the last batch of Margate models.

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4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

They have done - both the non-corridor shorties and the corridor blankies appeared masquerading as Midland clerestories. (The horror! The horror!) The shorties have had a long afterlife in faux teak, as LNER ex-GER carriages but perhaps their greatest honour is to have been repainted by Peter Denny as GCR carriages.

 

I think Hornby ought to issue the clerestories with non-clerestory roofs, as another set of generic coaches.

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1 minute ago, Budgie said:

I think Hornby ought to issue the clerestories with non-clerestory roofs, as another set of generic coaches.

 

One could look at cutting the clerestory off the roof moulding and filling in the hole. This would give a shallow 3-radius roof (shallower profile than the Ratio 4-wheelers) not a single arc.

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Perhaps this ought to be in its own thread .......... we have the 'generic' coaches, but what about a nice 'generic' loco to pull them? I'll start with No6699 - H/D GWR 0-6-2T that I converted to 2-rail and has flanged wheels all round to go with my 'generic' consist (I'm at a bit of a loose end at the moment ...............;).).

 

Here it is - bottom row, right:

 

DSCF0039.JPG.d4856c45c06408b2e987ed62d9c0146f.JPG

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

Edited by Philou
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15 minutes ago, Philou said:

Perhaps this ought to be in its own thread .......... we have the 'generic' coaches, but what about a nice 'generic' loco to pull them? I'll start with No6699 - H/D GWR 0-6-2T that I converted to 2-rail and has flanged wheels all round to go with my 'generic' consist (I'm at a bit of a loose end at the moment ...............;).).

 

Here it is - bottom row, right:

 

DSCF0039.JPG.d4856c45c06408b2e987ed62d9c0146f.JPG

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

think we had brought up a 4-4-0 made by beyer peacock or sharp stewart to work with some of the under represented companies

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Hattons could always produce the Barclay tanks in all different company liveries for each rake of coaches.

 

But then, no doubt, next January we'd see announcements for some new liveries on Pecketts... 

 

I know, both are tiny industrial shunters, but the P isn't generic enough and Hattons haven't made a bigger tank engine yet.

Edited by Dragonfly
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9 minutes ago, Joseph the L&YR lover said:

i mean a 0-6-0 tank engine that doesn't look like it's from any company could work

 

Of all the 0-6-0Ts currently around RTR, the NER E1 / LNER J72 is perhaps the most generic-looking. 

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32 minutes ago, Joseph the L&YR lover said:

i mean a 0-6-0 tank engine that doesn't look like it's from any company could work

 

Don't!

 

I can hear that wheedling voice again "But we've always had a generic six-coupled tank engine in our range"

 

3067.jpg.05918e188bee2e6bd29ef9414946e627.jpg1230.jpg.8ba488ae413124e3dcab3b82f5e8dba2.jpg608-2013123181727_540x360.jpg.4c01389b06455c42261d0ea10b88d734.jpg

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So, with the caveat that trying to match generic coaches to specific prototypes is never going to be a wholly satisfactory exercise and is, besides, somewhat missing the point ....

 

I had been musing upon the reasonably good body match between Hattons' 4-wheelers and the LB&SCR Billinton block sets of 1897 and at least one decent 6-wheel match. 

 

genesisartwork_lbscr.jpg.5a35af5ee421efbe2bf220453b3626af.jpg

 

Over on the Hornby generic coach topic, Nick Holliday pointed us to 'a proper job' that had already been done on comparing Hattons coaches to Brighton prototypes.  It's page 66 of the excellent Brighton digest and it's Here

 

It's not a perfect match, obviously, but it's a close one. The article takes you through the comparison and what changes would be necessary to the roof and underframe to make them closer. The key change is to replace the brake end. Nick suggests an after market etch for the brake ends. I reckon that with a bit of plasticard and microstrip, I could knock up new ends and 'sheet over' the duckets.  

 

The main point is that you can bring these coaches very closely towards a prototype without compromising the livery on the body.  Yes, you'd need to match the colour on the duckets, but the replacement brake end will be in red and no lining is required.

 

Ideally you would change the numbers and, in some cases, the class designations on some doors.

 

The advantage with the Block Set 4-wheelers is that you can model the whole train from the Hattons coaches.

 

Some history ....

 

Stroudley's body style was very modern for the early 1870s, and it was not until later that the style became very common, perhaps the dominant style, among many other companies, though by no means became universal. Thus, one of the disadvantages of basing a 'generic' coach on the Stroudley designs is that it is not typical of coaches in the period when this body style had become more general.  For instance, they were shorter than many later 4-wheelers (26'), they were quite low, they lacked bollection mouldings round the windows.

 

Thus, if you do not move your generic design away from the Stroudley origin, you'll end up, not with a generic coach, but more of a not-quite-a-Stroudley coach, which is not quite the same thing.  In my view, this is exactly what Hornby has done. They even have Westinghouse air cylinders carried over from the Stroudley plans, probably in ignorance as to what it was.

 

The Hattons coaches make better generics, because they have evolved some way from a Stroudley design to something much more representative of late Victorian coaches. These make them far better generic coaches, in my view, but also leave them suitable as Billinton stand-ins.

 

A bit of a ramble, but my point is that this is not just a comparison of the quality of the rival ranges; Hattons' suitability as Billinton (and other contemporary) coaches is a product of the contrast in approach between the rival ranges.

 

By the late 1890s, the Stroudley 4-wheel suburban sets were looking rather dated and showing their age. Billinton introduced 2 block sets of longer (28') 4-wheelers) in around 1897.  They were gas lit.  A third, electrically lit, set appeared later. 

 

Outshopped in the mahogany livery Hattons has chosen, the Billinton sets comprised 12-coaches.  Good news for Hattons; you can justify buying 12 of their 4-wheelers! 

 

You might, however, need a D1 tank to pull them! 

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How would one go about making close-coupled sets with these coaches? Obviously one would have to remove one buffer from each end (which side?) or would one remove both buffers and replace one with a shorter buffer? Then one would have to find a shorter coupling, making sure the set will go round radius 2 curves with no trouble.

Anything else?

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13 minutes ago, Budgie said:

How would one go about making close-coupled sets with these coaches? Obviously one would have to remove one buffer from each end (which side?) or would one remove both buffers and replace one with a shorter buffer? Then one would have to find a shorter coupling, making sure the set will go round radius 2 curves with no trouble.

Anything else?

The Metropolitan removed both buffers from both coaches and used a special coupling. There are adjustable close coupling units available.

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2 minutes ago, Budgie said:

How would one go about making close-coupled sets with these coaches? Obviously one would have to remove one buffer from each end (which side?) or would one remove both buffers and replace one with a shorter buffer? Then one would have to find a shorter coupling, making sure the set will go round radius 2 curves with no trouble.

Anything else?

 

There were a variety of ways of creating close-coupled sets. I'm only familiar with the Midland methods (which changed over time). The method used in the 1883 sets of London area 4-wheelers and 6-wheelers for other areas is illustrated by Midland Railway Study Centre Item 88-D0001. Miniature sprung buffers at one end and dumb buffers at the other end, at the usual buffer spacing (so that a standard headstock could be used). The coupling was a wrought iron or steel link held by a pin through a fork in the end of the drawbar. Brake ends had conventional buffers and couplings of course. I suppose that one brake third in each set had the miniature sprung buffers and the other, the dumb buffers but I've no conclusive evidence.

 

The drawing also shows the closest distance between two close-couple carriages, 8" at the roofs; for 8 ft-wide carriages, that's a tightest angle of 1:12 or 4.7°. For 31 ft carriages, that corresponds to a theoretical minimum radius of 386 ft, or just about 5 ft at 4 mm/ft scale. 

 

I suppose one could use something like the Keen close coupling system to get round tighter curves while keeping the prototypical separation on the straight.

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