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'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement


Hattons Dave
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Thanks Phil,

They do look very similar in roof line, which is actually a bit of a pity - I'd been hoping it would be possible to replicate something like this:

23615505_croppedphoto.jpg.13d69613a81ba2fc69d30d8d64f4abe9.jpg

An LSWR set train, seen in the late 1890s, with three carriages having the same roofline and panelling, but the second from the camera being shorter in height and with different panelling. 

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Like @Skinnylinny I think it's a bit of a shame that they are so similar; Do we know if this means the Hattons ones are more squat than was standard or that the Hornby ones are taller than proper Stroudleys, which I gather had a shallower roof profile than became standard?

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4 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

The best of the tension lock couplings IMHO is the early Airfix ones, both compact and reliable. The worst are Lima, oversize and unable to couple to some other tension lock couplings. Even worse the crossbar is often moulded in situ with the chassis.

Yes, the Airfix were by far the best of the old bunch, but current NEM RTR stacks up pretty well against them.

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2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

I doubt it, as the coaches are still sat in my office. I'll get around to returning them soon (promise). However, since you ask, a quick snap.

 

Side view_small.jpg

I think they sit very nicely together. Can't see a problem with the roof lines, and as you say, mixing and matching will produce a nice looking train. You might want to chose models from the same period though, unlike these two.

The height of the Hornby footboard is highlighted here, a possible opening for some etched brass alternatives?

 

Brian.

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9 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

I doubt it, as the coaches are still sat in my office. I'll get around to returning them soon (promise). However, since you ask, a quick snap.

 

Side view_small.jpg

I think they sit very nicely together. Can't see a problem with the roof lines, and as you say, mixing and matching will produce a nice looking train. You might want to chose models from the same period though, unlike these two.

 

 

My intention is a representation of the Glyncorrwg miner's workman's, Cwmmer Corrwg-North Rhondda, as running in the early 50s, probably in filthy BR crimson as they were by then carrying W prefix numbers.  I know that some GW 4 wheelers were repainted in this livery at Caerphilly Works, for this  and the Senghenydd miner's train, and the last in service were the Glyncorrwg set.  This, photographed in John Hodges' and Stuart Davies' Tondu Valleys book on pages 218-21 and 226.  The train consists of a 4 coach set of 4 wheelers, BT/T/BT van ends outwards and an additional 3rd.  Phil's photo shows that the first 3 coaches can be represented by Hattons Genesis, while the fourth, which is on a shorter wheelbase and has a slightly lower roof profile, will be ideal for a Hornby all third.  Job done! 

 

I made a previous attempt at this train with Ratio kits, which failed when I gave up on scale couplings (can't see 'em properly and my feeble old hands arem't steady enough)  and used the opportunity to to increase the capacity of the fy with setrack curves.  Everybody knows Ratio 4 wheelers don't like these, and the scale buffers I'd fitted didn't help.  Hattons and Hornby have both done well by me for this train; thank you gentlemen!

 

The Cwmme Corrwg miner's was an interesting train.  It  was for some years effectively the public service to the small mountain fastnesses of Glyncorrwg, as remote and isolated as Glamorgan gets with the possible exception of the North and South Rhondda collieries in the wilds at the top end of the valley, but everyone used the bus, which had soft(ish) clean(ish) seats with cushions.  It went to Neath, where there were shops.  Following the withdrawal of the 4 wheelers, the service used the last clerestories in revenue, which can be represented by lengthened Triang shorties, and when these were withdrawn, the last revenue Hammersmith and City bogies were used.  These lasted unitl 1960 I believe.

 

The trains were propelled from Glyncorrwg, and the 'uphill end' BT 4 wheeler had a porthole window cut centrally in the end for the guard to look out of.  The bogie stock, clerestory and H & C, had a droplight and auto trailer type treadle operated bell, a sort of ersatz auto working; the guard, of course, had a setter in the van and could bring the train to a stand if needed, very quickly propelling uphill at low speed.  It is a highly modellable operation, but not quite enough loco biodirversity for me; 57xx/8750s followed by D95xx.  The collieries closed in 1969, connection having been established to Glyn Neath and Tower at Hirwaun, where better rail links existed.  Were one to wnat to walk from North Rhondda to either of those places, it would have been far easier underground than over the mountain, even in good weather!

Edited by The Johnster
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1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

The train consists of a 4 coach set of 4 wheelers, BT/T/BT van ends outwards and an additional 3rd.

 

What? No F for management? Presumably they...

 

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

...used the bus, which had soft(ish) clean(ish) seats with cushions.

 

Sounds like a fascinating area to model railways! :good:

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14 minutes ago, Mr chapman said:

Looking at them side by side the underframe really stands out on the hattons model.

 

 

I wonder if they might consider a train pack with a P class... Please hattons... Southern green... 

Or even a P class and a set of coaches in the darker shade of SECR lake as seen on the bluebells secr coaches: https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pic2/lcdr/668.html

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3 hours ago, truffy said:
5 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

 

Sounds like a fascinating area to model railways! 

It is.  South Wales in general and the Tondu'Afan Valley complex in particular.  Tondu was a rather unimposing run of the mill shed with an allocation of about 50 locos give or take, but this featuered, as well as the usual South Wales supects (57xx/8750, 56xx, 42xx, 5101s, 94xx), some esoterica, including 3100, a Collett 1938 31xx large prarie, one of a class of only 5, and 44xx small prairies for the very sharply curved Porthcawl branch, replaced by auto fitted 4575s after1953.  You'd think coverage of RTR GW locos in BR days was pretty comprehensive, but Tondu flags up two missing classes straight off, and there was an 1854 until 1950. 

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16 hours ago, sem34090 said:

Like @Skinnylinny I think it's a bit of a shame that they are so similar; Do we know if this means the Hattons ones are more squat than was standard or that the Hornby ones are taller than proper Stroudleys, which I gather had a shallower roof profile than became standard?

What is "standard" for a roof profile? Many lines eschewed a simple arc roof like the Hornby and Hattons versions anyway.  From what I could tell from the Hatton's drawings, based on LBSC designs, their roof profile was higher than Stroudley's and slightly lower than that adopted by Billinton.  Judged only by photos of Hornby's offerings, they have got quite close to the Stroudley profile on the four wheelers, and it seems that they have used the same profile on the six wheelers, making them look very squat, if the video of one behind a GWR 2-8-2T is anything to go by. If so they are closer to the limited range of Stroudley six-wheelers, although probably 2 feet too long, and will not really match any other lines stock, as six-wheelers tended to have a higher profile than earlier stock.

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This may have already been covered somewhere earlier in this thread, but can anyone who has had a sample in their hands tell me this.

 

Does the coupler mount on these coaches just swivel, or is it a proper CCU that "grows" as it turns?

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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47 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Does the coupler mount on these coaches just swivel, or is it a proper CCU that "grows" as it turns?

 

From Jenny's review, it doesn't appear so, John (ca. 8:36):

 

 

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12 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

The LSW Hornby ones are even worse judging by the one review in Model Rail as their are no underframe tanks or cylinders  -a plain open gap between axleboxes

 

Hornby's LSWR-liveried carriages are depicted with oil lamps, so they are perfectly correct in that respect.

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12 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

The LSW Hornby ones are even worse judging by the one review in Model Rail as their are no underframe tanks or cylinders  -a plain open gap between axleboxes

You mean LBSC?

The LBSC coaches (and probably all others) feature air brake cylinders mounted centrally on the underframe. I couldn't tell you if they are mean to have air tanks as well but it as someone else said here or in the Hornby thread (sorry cant remember who), it appears Hornby have gone off Stroudley drawings when designing these coaches for the bulk of the work.

Edited by Pre Grouping fan
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21 minutes ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

You mean LBSC?

The LBSC coaches (and probably all others) feature air brake cylinders mounted centrally on the underframe. I couldn't tell you if they are mean to have air tanks as well but it as someone else said here or in the Hornby thread (sorry cant remember who), it appears Hornby have gone off Stroudley drawings when designing these coaches for the bulk of the work.

Sorry yes it is a LBSC but the lack of gas tanks for example highlights the lack of underframe trusses etc

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1 hour ago, Butler Henderson said:

Sorry yes it is a LBSC but the lack of gas tanks for example highlights the lack of underframe trusses etc

 

But I wouldn't expect any trussing on 19th-century 4 and 6-wheeled carriages. Where trussing is present on preserved examples, that's because they're mounted on much more modern steel underframes. From the images in the OP of the Hornby topic, Hornby have gas lighting for their NBR, GNR, and GWR liveries, all with gas tanks; electric for BR and SR, with battery boxes; and oil lighting for LNWR, LBSCR, and LSWR, all with appropriately bare underframes. The LNER livery version is an oddity, with oil laps and gas tanks; I've not checked if that's carried through to the production models. Hattons only have oil lighting for the GWR livery in the first batch:

 

In the third-class seat sat the journeying boy,
And the roof-lamp's oily flame
Played down on his listless form and face,
Bewrapt past knowing to what he was going,
Or whence he came.

 

In the band of his hat the journeying boy
Had a ticket stuck; and a string
Around his neck bore the key of his box,
That twinkled gleams of the lamp's sad beams
Like a living thing.

What past can be yours, O journeying boy
Towards a world uknown,
Who calmly, as if incurious quite
On all at stake, can undertake
This plunge alone?

Knows your soul a sphere, O journeying boy,
Our rude realms far above,
Whence with spacious vision you mark and mete
This region of sin that you find you in,
But are not of?

 

Midnight on the Great Western, Thomas Hardy

(published 1898 but possibly dating as far back as the 1860s)

 

 

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19 hours ago, truffy said:

 

What? No F for management? Presumably they..

Some South Wales miner's trains had 'clean' compartments for office and surface workers.  There were workmen's trains for other purposes, though, and at Tondu these were centred on the ROF factory at Tremains, on the SWML just east of Bridgend.  This opened in 1938 and expanded rapidly in response to German foreign policy of the period, and attracted traffic from the Tondu valleys, Llantriasant, and the Port Talbot area.  These trains used normal service stock and worked to diagrams that included public timetable revenue trains at other times of the day.  By 1960 the only one left was an Abergwynfi-Tremains, a Tondu working, the factory site having developed as the Tremains trading estate which is still very much in business.  It used to be railway connected, the track still in situ in the 70s, but I don't think it was in use at that time. 

 

Tondu apparently had a 1854 pannier with a spark arrestor chimney for shunting it as an ordnance factory, and it had it's own locos as well at that time.  There were 2 1854s at the shed in 1948, but the records are contradictory about their numbers, and I don't know whether one or both had spark arrestors.  No photo in the John Hodges/Stuart Davies books shows an 1854 with such a chimney, but it would be a nice feature.  I have a Wills 1854, a kind donation from Philou of this parish, which I intend to build a new Southestern chassis for.  It will represnt the last one at the shed, which went in late 1950, which is stated in RailUK as being 1740 and as 1870 in Hodges/Davies. 

 

Drifting :offtopic: a bit...

 

Edited by The Johnster
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12 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

 

Does the coupler mount on these coaches just swivel, or is it a proper CCU that "grows" as it turns?

 

John

It’s a fixed point on the EP’s.
img_1589.jpg

The coaches run very well in their EP guise, so I see no reason/requirement why they would change the design. 
 

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15 hours ago, PMP said:

It’s a fixed point on the EP’s.
img_1589.jpg

The coaches run very well in their EP guise, so I see no reason/requirement why they would change the design. 
 

Thanks, I've got some left-over Keen Systems "2-pin" links that look like they'll do nicely for mine when the time comes. If they turn out to be too short, Hornby's Roco-a-likes should do the trick.  

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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