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'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement


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The Johnster gets confused easily and it's getting worse.  Is this the Hatton's thread or the Hornby one...

 

But I'm starting to get a bit of a handle on these 4/6 wheelers from each producer now,  To summarize, as much to put my thoughts into print and so order them properly as to entertain you lot, the intention is to represent the Glyncorrwg Miner's as running in hte early 50s, photos in the Hodges/Stuart Tondu Valleys books.  Loco/BT/T/BT/T, all 4 wheel Deans l(oco runs around and propels from Glyncorrwg to North Rhondda), to be capable of smooth running on no,3 curves even propelling, which cannot be done with Ratio kits.  The BTs faced van ends away from each other btw.  Trailing Third is different profile to the other 3.  Livery, BR crimson with a top coat of coal dust.  Plan was to use renumbered Hattons Genesis BTs, and a Hornby Third for the odd man out coach.

 

But this won't work as I now realise; both Hattons' and Hornby's 4 wheel BTs have the LBSC type of guard's ducket and end windows, which while being attractive and a not uncommon setup, is not at all the thing for a Glyccorrwg Miner's. 

 

New plan, 1) BTs to be Hattons 6 wheelers with the middle axle removed, running with a Hattons 5-compartment 3rd between them and a Hornby 5 compartment 3rd trailing.

 

New plan 2} BTs to be Hattons 4 wheel chassis to match the intervening 5 compartment 3rd, retaining Hattons interior, but with Ratio BT bodyshell. 

 

Bit of research to be done to establish that a Ratio BT bodyshell will fit to either a Hattons 4 or 6 wheel underframe, but I think I'm getting my head around this now.  Of course, Cwmdimbath isnt't Glycorrwg and I do not have to model that exact train exactly, but a 4 wheel BT with the ducket in the side position not the end is essential to my intention to represent Dean 4 wheelers on an early 1950s miner's workman's in South Wales.

 

Next move; establish  lengths of Hattons' 4 wheel and 6 wheel genesis chassis, and length of Ratio/Parkside Dean BT.  Then establish length of Hornby 4 and 6 wheel chassis to see if my existing Ratio third, many years old but nowt wrong with it apart from being a Ratio all third, can be used for the odd man out coach.  I'm fettling panniers today, so not yet, but that;s the next move on the miner's workman's project.

 

 

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On 24/01/2021 at 13:48, The Johnster said:

The Johnster gets confused easily and it's getting worse.  Is this the Hatton's thread or the Hornby one...

 

But I'm starting to get a bit of a handle on these 4/6 wheelers from each producer now,  To summarize, as much to put my thoughts into print and so order them properly as to entertain you lot, the intention is to represent the Glyncorrwg Miner's as running in hte early 50s, photos in the Hodges/Stuart Tondu Valleys books.  Loco/BT/T/BT/T, all 4 wheel Deans l(oco runs around and propels from Glyncorrwg to North Rhondda), to be capable of smooth running on no,3 curves even propelling, which cannot be done with Ratio kits.  The BTs faced van ends away from each other btw.  Trailing Third is different profile to the other 3.  Livery, BR crimson with a top coat of coal dust.  Plan was to use renumbered Hattons Genesis BTs, and a Hornby Third for the odd man out coach.

 

But this won't work as I now realise; both Hattons' and Hornby's 4 wheel BTs have the LBSC type of guard's ducket and end windows, which while being attractive and a not uncommon setup, is not at all the thing for a Glyccorrwg Miner's. 

 

New plan, 1) BTs to be Hattons 6 wheelers with the middle axle removed, running with a Hattons 5-compartment 3rd between them and a Hornby 5 compartment 3rd trailing.

 

New plan 2} BTs to be Hattons 4 wheel chassis to match the intervening 5 compartment 3rd, retaining Hattons interior, but with Ratio BT bodyshell. 

 

Bit of research to be done to establish that a Ratio BT bodyshell will fit to either a Hattons 4 or 6 wheel underframe, but I think I'm getting my head around this now.  Of course, Cwmdimbath isnt't Glycorrwg and I do not have to model that exact train exactly, but a 4 wheel BT with the ducket in the side position not the end is essential to my intention to represent Dean 4 wheelers on an early 1950s miner's workman's in South Wales.

 

Next move; establish  lengths of Hattons' 4 wheel and 6 wheel genesis chassis, and length of Ratio/Parkside Dean BT.  Then establish length of Hornby 4 and 6 wheel chassis to see if my existing Ratio third, many years old but nowt wrong with it apart from being a Ratio all third, can be used for the odd man out coach.  I'm fettling panniers today, so not yet, but that;s the next move on the miner's workman's project.

 

 

 

It would seem that the common element here would be a Hattons 5 compartment third. Buy that, and you have a physical example to check against ... .

 

The question arises whether a single Ratio third could be accommodated in the rake , with play on the couplings being accommodated by the the swivel mount of the adjacent vehicles.

 

Also Parkside do   NEM mountings but you will need to source the actual NEM pocket with the dovetail to fit in the mitre slot on the pocket.  However Bachmann seem to supply these pockets on the couplings in their packs Bachmann straight tension-locks with NEM pocket  . Retrofitting NEM swivel mounts to an existing Ratio coach might prove a cheaper route for 1 vehicle than buying a whole Hattons/Hornby coach in order to discard the body, even if the latter could credibly be "grounded" somewhere

 

If it doesn't work - you unplug the coupling for use elsewhere, and your total loss is 1 pair plastic mounting blocks

Edited by Ravenser
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Not sure if this is the right forum for this but this carriage is LSWR , photo taken in Wickham , Hampshire in 1908.

Ineed help in identifying it and does anybody know if there would be a suitable Hattons or Hornby carriage that would be close ?

BD6438C2-479A-4B2E-A058-92DE959233F4.png

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2 minutes ago, mvrnut said:

Not sure if this is the right forum for this but this carriage is LSWR , photo taken in Wickham , Hampshire in 1908.

Ineed help in identifying it and does anybody know if there would be a suitable Hattons or Hornby carriage that would be close ?

 

 

It's a fruit van - there isn't anything in either range very closely corresponding to such. The carriage to the left is a LNWR vehicle, probably a 6-wheel 5-compartment third, a number of which were converted for seasonal fruit traffic. Compare this photo taken at Botley.

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8 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Roxey does a 48' bogie version, and Mallard did a 24' 4-wheeler.

 

The Roxey 48 ft vehicle is a fruit & parcels full brake. They do do a 6-wheel fruit & milk van under the Southwark Bridge label, in both 4 mm and 7 mm scales. 

 

8 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

I seem to recall Parkside making a kit of the LSWR van.

 

I don't think Parkside have ever made kits for LSWR NPCS - the nearest approach would be their Southern 4-wheel utility van. Are you thinking of Cambrian's LSWR van? That's goods stock, so not suitable for soft fruit, which really needed passenger-rated stock in order to run to passenger timings.

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13 hours ago, mvrnut said:

Not sure if this is the right forum for this but this carriage is LSWR , photo taken in Wickham , Hampshire in 1908.

Ineed help in identifying it and does anybody know if there would be a suitable Hattons or Hornby carriage that would be close ?

BD6438C2-479A-4B2E-A058-92DE959233F4.png

 

It looks like an LSWR D636 24' Luggage Van (drawing Weddel Volume 3, P13)

 

It looks like Blacksmiths did a kit, if you can find one: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/blacksmith-models-lswr-24ft-wheel-277055886

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On 01/02/2021 at 14:04, Ravenser said:

 

It would seem that the common element here would be a Hattons 5 compartment third. Buy that, and you have a physical example to check against ... .

 

The question arises whether a single Ratio third could be accommodated in the rake , with play on the couplings being accommodated by the the swivel mount of the adjacent vehicles.

 

Also Parkside do   NEM mountings but you will need to source the actual NEM pocket with the dovetail to fit in the mitre slot on the pocket.  However Bachmann seem to supply these pockets on the couplings in their packs Bachmann straight tension-locks with NEM pocket  . Retrofitting NEM swivel mounts to an existing Ratio coach might prove a cheaper route for 1 vehicle than buying a whole Hattons/Hornby coach in order to discard the body, even if the latter could credibly be "grounded" somewhere

 

If it doesn't work - you unplug the coupling for use elsewhere, and your total loss is 1 pair plastic mounting blocks

I am a veteran user of Parkside PA34 mounting blocks, an excellent and versatile resource that can be packed or trimmed to achieve the correct height and positioned to get the correct distance from the buffer beam.  The potential weak point in my proposed scheme is the visual matching the Hattons and Ratio/Parkside vehicles, but I have a 5 compartment Ratio all third in the 'might come in handy one day' box so this will not be an issue so long as I can get the eaves and roof profile to match.  The real 4th coach, another 5 compartment all third, is slightly lower at the eaves and has a slightly different roof profile, not to mention what looks like Hornby type planked ends, so if the Hornby coach exactly matches the Hattons or Ratio/Parksides in regard to eave leval and roof profile, I'm stuffed.

 

I will buy a Hattons 5 compartment 4 wheeler when they come out, and see what can or can't be done.

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Re Underframe Trussing

Some 4 wheelers were built with trussing, generally later (hence longer) vehicles but yes the majority did not have it.   Some late build 4 wheelers also had steel underframes and these normally had trussing.

What was common however was trussing being fitted when a 6 wheeler was converted to a 4 wheeler, an example being the many LCDR vehicles which were converted for suburban use around 1919.

 

Pete

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11 hours ago, Les1952 said:

 

I've never eaten one.....

 

Reminds me of the story of the soccer player who, when asked if he preferred grass or AstroTurf, replied that he didn’t know because he’d never smoked AstroTurf. 

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54 minutes ago, Fredo said:

Hi, have just bought an NCB Loco from Hattons, does anyone know how long the coaches that Hattons are bringing out in packs stayed in use till. Thanks Fred 

 

Since the Hattons carriages do not represent a specific prototype, Rule 1 applies.

 

But I dare say those with knowledge of such things can report on the latest date for 4- or 6-wheel carriages in NCB use. On the Cannock Chase lines, they were certainly in use into the late 1950s.

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As regards coach rooflines I am reminded of my days when I modelled LGB products.  Many of us are anal retentive being particularly fussy that rooflines and liveries are matching over the full length of a train.  A case comes to mind of a production run of a Zillertalbahn "U" class steam locomotive which  prototypically had a very low cab roofline.  Knowing that most modellers would have liked the loco cab roof to align with the coaches in the rake,  the manufacturer specifically raised the cab roof to match the roofline of the coaches, even though unprototypical.  They did release a more prototypical low cab roof model for the more discerning modellers.

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From the pictures that I have seen, the Hattons Genesis product seems to be better than its competitor, particularly below deck and on the ends.  I had two short rakes pre-ordered before the Hornby version was announced, and I have stayed with these.  However I now have several Hornby GNR coaches in transit as well.  This is down to (a) Hornby's ability to render the teak livery and (b) them being available now.  It is going to be interesting to see how they compare in fact.

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18 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

I am reminded of my days when I modelled LGB products.

 

Ahhh, those halcyon days before the TQI+ABC123 brigade insisted on separate recognition! Simpler times.

 

IGMC

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In the hope that this photo appears OK, I include one of a cigarette card inherited from my late father illustrating what appears to be a 6 wheel coach converted for weedkilling train purposes. Apologies for the indifferent quality but it is mounted behind glass with 49 others and inseparable. Curiously it appears at first glance to have lookout duckets at both ends though those nearest the artist seem to be cut off at the waist (so to speak). The card dates from the 1930's and is one of a series depicting 'railway equipment'. The train looks as if it might be GWR in origin but doubtless learned colleagues will confirm or otherwise and risk an off topic thread diversion. I post only in case it provides inspiration for someone with the requisite skills to try a model of it based on one of the current offerings (either Hattons or Hornby). Best of luck.

Weedkilling train.jpg

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11 minutes ago, Tramshed said:

In the hope that this photo appears OK, I include one of a cigarette card inherited from my late father illustrating what appears to be a 6 wheel coach converted for weedkilling train purposes. Apologies for the indifferent quality but it is mounted behind glass with 49 others and inseparable. Curiously it appears at first glance to have lookout duckets at both ends though those nearest the artist seem to be cut off at the waist (so to speak). The card dates from the 1930's and is one of a series depicting 'railway equipment'. The train looks as if it might be GWR in origin but doubtless learned colleagues will confirm or otherwise and risk an off topic thread diversion. I post only in case it provides inspiration for someone with the requisite skills to try a model of it based on one of the current offerings (either Hattons or Hornby). Best of luck.

Weedkilling train.jpg

I suspect the duckets at the near end have been cut down and then the remaining incorporated into the tank?

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I don't think those were "duckets" at all.

They are made up of the two side pieces (to match the already proven "in-gauge" duckets) and a top shelf, which appears to hold the handle (and bearing feed through apparatus) to rotate the out of gauge spray pipes and nozzles. (The vertical handle rod can be seen going up between the duckets sides.)

 

Great photo image though.

 

 

Kev.

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11 minutes ago, SHMD said:

I don't think those were "duckets" at all.

They are made up of the two side pieces (to match the already proven "in-gauge" duckets) and a top shelf, which appears to hold the handle (and bearing feed through apparatus) to rotate the out of gauge spray pipes and nozzles. (The vertical handle rod can be seen going up between the duckets sides.)

 

Great photo image though.

 

 

Kev.

The image seems to represent a SR train judging by the tenders, and there were SECR 6-wheel full brakes with duckets at both ends that would facilitate such a conversion.

 

Re-purposing of otherwise redundant vehicles for such uses would be done with the minimum possible alterations.

 

A cut-and-shut of two Hattons 6-w brake third bodies, thereby "liberating" the second underframe for other uses looks pretty tempting...

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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