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'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement


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4 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

The image seems to represent a SR train judging by the tenders, and there were SECR 6-wheel full brakes with duckets at both ends that would facilitate such a conversion.

 

Re-purposing of otherwise redundant vehicles for such uses would be done with the minimum possible alterations.

 

A cut-and-shut of two Hattons 6-w brake third bodies, thereby "liberating" the second underframe for other uses looks pretty tempting...

 

John

Branchlines do or did a etched  kit for the six wheeled van with duckets at both ends. I have an unbuilt one.

The duckets were cut down at one end for the weed killing train conversion.

I am trying to think what else was in the train. looks like a motley collection of old tenders on the postcard. I am sure that there has been an article about it somewhere.

 

Ray

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On 15/02/2021 at 17:20, Dunsignalling said:

The image seems to represent a SR train judging by the tenders, and there were SECR 6-wheel full brakes with duckets at both ends that would facilitate such a conversion.

 

Re-purposing of otherwise redundant vehicles for such uses would be done with the minimum possible alterations.

 

A cut-and-shut of two Hattons 6-w brake third bodies, thereby "liberating" the second underframe for other uses looks pretty tempting...

 

John

More than likely Southern Railway as there is a third rail in the cigarette card picture, part of a nice collection of cards by the looks of it! Thanks for the image, interesting stuff. 

 

Best wishes, 

 

Jim. 

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On 13/02/2021 at 04:14, KymN said:

From the pictures that I have seen, the Hattons Genesis product seems to be better than its competitor, particularly below deck and on the ends. 

I'd agree about the underframes, judging from what I've seen of the Hattons Genesis coaches, but the ends are different to, rather than better than, Hornby's.  Hornby have modelled a coach with vertically planked ends while Hattons have panelled ends.  Both are valid approaches.

 

A significant difference IMHO is that Hornby have used wheelsets without pointed axle ends held in tubes, which makes replacing wheels difficult as the axleboxes do not have recesses for pin point axles, and it is difficult to drill such recesses as there is  another axlebox about 18mm away blocking your access to drill square to the workface.  I assume that Hattons coaches use conventional wheelsets with pinpoint axle ends, a much better approach!

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On 18/02/2021 at 20:03, The Johnster said:

I'd agree about the underframes, judging from what I've seen of the Hattons Genesis coaches, but the ends are different to, rather than better than, Hornby's.  Hornby have modelled a coach with vertically planked ends while Hattons have panelled ends.  Both are valid approaches.

 

A significant difference IMHO is that Hornby have used wheelsets without pointed axle ends held in tubes, which makes replacing wheels difficult as the axleboxes do not have recesses for pin point axles, and it is difficult to drill such recesses as there is  another axlebox about 18mm away blocking your access to drill square to the workface.  I assume that Hattons coaches use conventional wheelsets with pinpoint axle ends, a much better approach!

I didn't realise that Hornby has issued two types of ends to their carriages. I've got some LBSC four wheelers, and an NBR six wheeler, and they all have five panelled ends, the same as the Hattons' CAD drawings, both matching for LBSC designs. It's a bit unfair criticising Hornby for "omitting" details which were not present on the originals they based their design on, but I suppose fair game if considering a more generic application. For example, the Brighton used an electric communication system, Stroudley-Rusbridge, which only manifested itself on the ends as a small fixing plate and a cable, hence there is no need for the rodding as on one of the Hattons' ends, likewise the paucity of underframe detail, due to the use of discreet Westinghouse brakes, and not the cumbersome vacuum equipment.

It is quite easy to remove the internal bearings, but why not use shorter axles without the pin-points and limit the rather excessive play on the ends with washers, or there are tools that are available to allow you to drill out for bearings, specifically for these instances, but I cannot recall who supplies them.

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2 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

It's a bit unfair criticising Hornby for "omitting" details which were not present on the originals they based their design on, but I suppose fair game if considering a more generic application. For example, the Brighton used an electric communication system, Stroudley-Rusbridge, which only manifested itself on the ends as a small fixing plate and a cable, hence there is no need for the rodding as on one of the Hattons' ends, likewise the paucity of underframe detail, due to the use of discreet Westinghouse brakes, and not the cumbersome vacuum equipment.

 

 

And therein lies the problem.

 

Most railways in the UK used vacuum brakes and mechanical emergency alarm gear - not Westinghouse air brakes and most certainly not a patented Stroudley electric communication system.

 

Hattons approach to 'Generic' coach equipment is thus a far more sensible one to take and will look far better painted up in a variety of liveries than Hornbys Stroudley based designs.

 

I have a set of Hornby 4 wheelers in LBSCR livery - but everything else I am looking for livery wise will be coming from Hattons.

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3 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

I didn't realise that Hornby has issued two types of ends to their carriages. I've got some LBSC four wheelers, and an NBR six wheeler, and they all have five panelled ends, the same as the Hattons' CAD drawings, both matching for LBSC designs. It's a bit unfair criticising Hornby for "omitting" details which were not present on the originals they based their design on, but I suppose fair game if considering a more generic application. For example, the Brighton used an electric communication system, Stroudley-Rusbridge, which only manifested itself on the ends as a small fixing plate and a cable, hence there is no need for the rodding as on one of the Hattons' ends, likewise the paucity of underframe detail, due to the use of discreet Westinghouse brakes, and not the cumbersome vacuum equipment.

It is quite easy to remove the internal bearings, but why not use shorter axles without the pin-points and limit the rather excessive play on the ends with washers, or there are tools that are available to allow you to drill out for bearings, specifically for these instances, but I cannot recall who supplies them.

What's the difference in the ends ?

Anybody got a picture of each type ?

 

All the best

Ray

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59 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

What's the difference in the ends ?

Anybody got a picture of each type ?

 

All the best

Ray

As I said, there is no difference between an LBSC 4w and the NBR 6w ends.  But, for all I know, Hornby might have produced a planked end for some of the other lines, but I doubt it.

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At what width does a plank become a panel?  The photos of the non brake ends of the EPs of the Hattons 4 and 6 wheel coaches and the non brake ends of the Hornby 6 wheel coaches that I have all have 5 equal width full height panels.

Edited by SR Chris
Checked my facts before adding an observation.
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31 minutes ago, SR Chris said:

At what width does a plank become a panel?  The photos of the non brake ends of the EPs of the Hattons 4 and 6 wheel coaches and the non brake ends of the Hornby 6 wheel coaches that I have all have 5 equal width full height panels.

 

It's a question not of width but of method of construction. The real carriage body has a wooden frame, with (in this case) six vertical end pillars (including the corner pillars); these are around 3" wide by 2¼" deep (the corner pillars being 3" x 3" with a rebate cut out on the inside corner). To this are nailed or screwed wooden panels, ⅜" - ½" thick. The joints between the panels are covered with beading strips, also ⅜" - ½" thick and around 1½" wide, with the outer edges half-round. These beading strips are also nailed or screwed in place, the area around nail or screw heads being filled and sanded down so that the fixings are invisible. On the inside, the compartment end wall is made of boards of similar thickness, nailed horizontally or diagonally across the end pillars. These boards may be 9" - 12" wide. 

 

So I think we've got panels, made of tropical hardwood panelling boards, and boarding, made of deal boards. Neither, I think, are planks.

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I think that is right.  Ends of coaches from that period tended to be of two sorts, one with vertical boarding over the framework, which I incorrectly called planking, and one with ply sheeting decorated with beading, which I incorrectly called panelling.  The 'panel' is the ply sheet, and the beading a separate component serving a merely decorative purpose, but on the sides, the beading may actually be the part that covers the joins of smaller panels attached side by side to the frame, and this is I believe correctly described as panelling, and the coach as  being panelled.  Common usage describing such coaches' ends as panelled may be less correct.

 

There were also 'matchboarded' coaches, with vertically placed boards as an outer skin on a wooden inner frame.  Some GW railmotors and auto trailers were of this sort, and they could be found on other railways as well.  It is, I believe, an adaptation of American carriage building practice; the 'wild west' coaches you see in cowboy films are always of this sort, but with end vestibules.  It is not a type of construction that lends itself to compartment stock, but the Ffestiniog has some quarrymens' 4 wheelers of this sort. 

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1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

I think that is right.  Ends of coaches from that period tended to be of two sorts, one with vertical boarding over the framework, which I incorrectly called planking, and one with ply sheeting decorated with beading, which I incorrectly called panelling.  The 'panel' is the ply sheet, and the beading a separate component serving a merely decorative purpose, but on the sides, the beading may actually be the part that covers the joins of smaller panels attached side by side to the frame, and this is I believe correctly described as panelling, and the coach as  being panelled.  Common usage describing such coaches' ends as panelled may be less correct.

 

I'm afraid you have misunderstood what I explained. As @Northroader says, there's no plywood involved. The wood sheets are thin pieces of hardwood, usually a tropical hardwood such as teak or mahogany. The beading strips are not purely decorative but cover the butt joints in the panelling. This method of construction is exactly the same as on the sides. It's all panelling. I can't off-hand think of any examples from the main line companies of vertical boarding rather than panelling, until matchboard ends of the 1910s20s onwards or so.

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3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

There were also 'matchboarded' coaches, with vertically placed boards as an outer skin on a wooden inner frame.  Some GW railmotors and auto trailers were of this sort, and they could be found on other railways as well.  It is, I believe, an adaptation of American carriage building practice; the 'wild west' coaches you see in cowboy films are always of this sort, but with end vestibules.  It is not a type of construction that lends itself to compartment stock, but the Ffestiniog has some quarrymens' 4 wheelers of this sort. 

I believe that match boarding was quite popular on the Highland Railway. The SE & CR also had match boarding on the lower half sides of some of its 60 ft coaches. A lot of the earlier Pullman cars were also match boarded as depicted on the Graham Farish 00 cars and some of the Hornby ones.

 

I think that I even saw a picture of a Southern EMU where the match boarding got carried over from a cut and shut using a former SE & CR coach. I cannot remember which book though.

 

All the best

 

Ray

Edited by wainwright1
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1 hour ago, wainwright1 said:

I believe that match boarding was quite popular on the Highland Railway. The SE & CR also had match boarding on the lower half sides of some of its 60 ft coaches. A lot of the earlier Pullman cars were also match boarded as depicted on the Graham Farish 00 cars and some of the Hornby ones.

 

I said mine lines...

 

You are quite right; the matchboarding taking the place of the wood panels. However, I think this is a 20th century thing (not sure about the Highland there) so not really relevant to the sorts of 4 and 6-wheel carriages represented by the Hornby and Hattons models.

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17 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I said main lines...

 

You are quite right; the matchboarding taking the place of the wood panels. However, I think this is a 20th century thing (not sure about the Highland there) so not really relevant to the sorts of 4 and 6-wheel carriages represented by the Hornby and Hattons models.

The Highland constructed a handful of match-boarded six wheelers circa 1908/9.  Slightly longer than the Genesis types, but very much in the same genre.

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3 hours ago, johnhutnick said:

So are there to be Genesis coaches offered in Highland livery?  I do not see this in batches 2 or 3.


I guess it depends on whether there’s a batch 4+, and that will depend on how the first three batches sell. Only Hattons will be able to tell, and even they only at some point in the future. 
 

You could try asking them directly, of course!

 

3 hours ago, johnhutnick said:

And seemingly undecorated models are not being sold. 


This suggests that you’re not afraid of rolling your sleeves up. So why not by the closest offering and relivery it?

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I'm guessing Hattons will have lost sales to Hornby for the LB&SCR stock. I wonder if it would be possible / prudent to switch from the painted mahogany livery to the earlier varnished wood livery as in the photo in the first post of this thread. They're already 'teaking' the GNR versions. Could they take the teaked versions and switch them to the LB&SCR production line for logos crests and numbers ? Is this possible ? Or am I being stupid ?

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57 minutes ago, GNR Dave said:

I'm guessing Hattons will have lost sales to Hornby for the LB&SCR stock. I wonder if it would be possible / prudent to switch from the painted mahogany livery to the earlier varnished wood livery as in the photo in the first post of this thread. They're already 'teaking' the GNR versions. Could they take the teaked versions and switch them to the LB&SCR production line for logos crests and numbers ? Is this possible ? Or am I being stupid ?

 

That teak one on the first page is LCDR not LBSCR. The carriages Hattons are doing are far to modern in appearance for an earlier LBSC livery. If they were going to switch it then the best thing would be the later umber livery, which ironically is what Hattons called the mahogany livery when they first showed it. (despite what some people seem to think, Hattons never changed the livery they were making, they just started using the right name for it)

 

Gary

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