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'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement


Hattons Dave
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5 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

I want a GER brake third. The end windows on the Hattons coach are more or less the right size and shape but the duckets are wrong. The Hornby offering has duckets that are right for the GER but the end windows are completely wrong. 

 

The GER livery is in batch 3, along with NER, Caledonian, and S&DJR. The ducket is a separate piece in the assembly. Perhaps if you speak nicely to them they might be persuaded to tool up for a round-topped ducket, which I think would be right for all those except the North Eastern. Alternatively, Evergreen do a range of quarter-round styrene section...

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1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The GER livery is in batch 3, along with NER, Caledonian, and S&DJR. The ducket is a separate piece in the assembly. Perhaps if you speak nicely to them they might be persuaded to tool up for a round-topped ducket, which I think would be right for all those except the North Eastern. Alternatively, Evergreen do a range of quarter-round styrene section...

The alternative is to replace the end of the Hornby one. This is a one piece clear plastic moulding so it shouldn't be difficult. I am looking into replacing it with clear plasticard or acrylic with an overlay either etched or laser cut. 

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2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That sounds to me like a more difficult modification to an inferior approximation to a GER carriage.

Not difficult at all, as I said the end is a separate piece in clear plastic so should be readily removable. I won't know for certain though until I get one to check it out.

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On 05/03/2021 at 09:30, rprodgers said:

Apologises if this has been mentioned before re the 4 wheel brake is the arrangement of the guards duckets at the very rear windows at the very rear of the coach unique  just to the LBSC railway or did any other companies have this arrangement?

 

I have ordered a number of sets (different companies) and am wondering if I should re-order some coaches singularly 

A quick image search on the internet when this came up on the Hornby thread a few weeks ago showed at least the following with that arrangement: LBSCR, LSWR, LCDR, SECR, GNR, GWR, LYR, Caledonian, GER, LNWR, M&GN - not all the coaches from those companies, and there's almost certainly others, but it was definitely a common feature - especially for those companies that ran fixed/'block' sets and suburban services, which would generally be marshalled with a brake at either end of each set.

Edited by Nick C
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3 minutes ago, Nick C said:

A quick image search [...] LYR, 

 

I wouldn't claim to have done a comprehensive search but the L&Y examples I found had the ducket near but not at the end - a short blank panel intervened. But since the L&Y's style of panelling was so radically different from that of the Hattons and Hornby carriages, it's really a minor quibble!

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4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Whilst characteristic of the LB&SCR, it's by no means unusual; LNWR 4-wheel brake thirds spring to mind. Of the liveries offered in batches 1 and 2, the only one I'd say categorically not is the Midland livery, since Midland arc-roof carriages of the 1880s-90s didn't have duckets at all, except for the 4-wheel passenger brake vans (i.e. without passenger accommodation). The Great Western had some 4-wheelers with the duckets at the very end but these didn't have the large windows in the end.

Thanks Stephen your reply is much appreciated 

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I was looking at the expected arrival date of the GWR Hattons Genesis coaches and noticed in the search return the absence of the full brake coach.  Perhaps an omission in the search return or has it been dropped from the line up please?

 

Edit:  I could only find the coach by searching "6 wheel full brake" rather than a specific search for a GWR variant.

https://www.hattons.co.uk/498081/hattons_originals_h4_6fb_101_6_wheel_full_brake_99_in_gwr_chocolate_and_cream/stockdetail.aspx

 

Edit:  a subsequent search specifically for a "GWR 6 wheel full brake coach" actually found the coach.  Odd that it did not work previously.

 

Edited by GWR-fan
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On 14/03/2021 at 00:04, GWR-fan said:

I was looking at the expected arrival date of the GWR Hattons Genesis coaches and noticed in the search return the absence of the full brake coach.  Perhaps an omission in the search return or has it been dropped from the line up please?

 

Edit:  I could only find the coach by searching "6 wheel full brake" rather than a specific search for a GWR variant.

https://www.hattons.co.uk/498081/hattons_originals_h4_6fb_101_6_wheel_full_brake_99_in_gwr_chocolate_and_cream/stockdetail.aspx

 

Edit:  a subsequent search specifically for a "GWR 6 wheel full brake coach" actually found the coach.  Odd that it did not work previously.

 

 

Exactly the same happened to me. When I first looked, none of the 6-W full brakes would display.

 

I found if I navigated via this page however. I could see and order everything.

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On 07/04/2021 at 15:08, Hattons Dave said:

Hi all,

 

genesis_sr_secr_lbsc_group.png.6b003e036ac6d6c31dfb5e7575b4c19e.png

 

We're pleased to show our next lot of painted samples - covering LBSCR mahogany, SECR red and SR olive green liveries. We're very pleased with how these samples are looking and we should have even more to share with you soon.

 

All Batch 1 models are expected by Q3 2021.

 

Find out more HERE

A joy! I shall look forward to the SR 6 wheel full brake carriage.

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On 07/04/2021 at 15:08, Hattons Dave said:

We're pleased to show our next lot of painted samples - covering LBSCR mahogany, SECR red and SR olive green liveries. 

 

I've only just had a close look at these. All three liveries have the bolection mouldings in the body colour and lining round the outside of the bolection mouldings. I claim no expertise on liveries south of the river but this seems unlikely to me on general principles; I hope to be come better informed quite rapidly! I'm expecting the bolection mouldings to be varnished wood as for this ex-LBSCR carriage in Southern livery. It may be that the Southern was following LSWR carriage painting conventions; I can't find good photos of restored LBSCR or SECR carriages in this style but just to get discussion going, here's a Stroudley LBSCR carriage with internal bolections and hence lining around the window reveal; how were Billington carriages with external bolections treated? SECR carriages are a special case, having LNWR-style panelling at least in the period relevant to the 4 and 6-wheelers, many of which were of SER build.

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2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I've only just had a close look at these. All three liveries have the bolection mouldings in the body colour and lining round the outside of the bolection mouldings. I claim no expertise on liveries south of the river but this seems unlikely to me on general principles; I hope to be come better informed quite rapidly! I'm expecting the bolection mouldings to be varnished wood as for this ex-LBSCR carriage in Southern livery. It may be that the Southern was following LSWR carriage painting conventions; I can't find good photos of restored LBSCR or SECR carriages in this style but just to get discussion going, here's a Stroudley LBSCR carriage with internal bolections and hence lining around the window reveal; how were Billington carriages with external bolections treated? SECR carriages are a special case, having LNWR-style panelling at least in the period relevant to the 4 and 6-wheelers, many of which were of SER build.

 

The Brighton Liveried Coaches

 

These are finished in mahogany livery, applied under Stroudley and subsequently up to 1903, when umber and white was introduced. 

 

Stroudley vastly preferred varnished mahogany. Some Brighton built coaches, and those built by outside contractors, were of cheaper wood.  These, like earlier Craven coaches, seem to have bee finished in a painted mahogany. For example, Stroudley 6-wheel First 661 of 1880 (the picture you linked to) was built with softwood panels.  It is restored in a painted mahogany livery. The Hattons models are probably best understood as painted mahogany.

 

The bolections (fitted to late-build Stroudley and Billinton coaches) seem to have been made of actual mahogany. Assuming they were varnished not painted over (I think it most unlikely they would have been painted over), there might be a slight contrast in finish. Ultimately, however, we have mahogany bolections and mahogany coloured bodies, so probably best left alone.

 

As to whether there should be lining around the fixed lights, I would say 'no'. 

 

As you note, there is lining around the quarter lights of Stroudleys (seen both in contemporary pictures of varnished coaches and on preserved 661), where there are no bolections.  Where there are bolections - as on Billinton coaches and as on the Hattons models - my judgment is that there should not be lining round the fixed lights.  

 

The clearest picture I can find is of a bogie coach of 1900 (in painted mahogany) where there is a good view of a lavatory window. 

 

20210409_113429.jpg.022582812600607711993c4d9a9694ab.jpg

 

What we are seeing above is the light reflected on the rim of the bolection around the fixed lavatory light; there is no additional lining line around it.

 

However, despite the fact that the Hattons coaches are closer to Billinton coaches than they are to Stroudleys (eerily close in some cases, given that the resemblance is coincidental), it is notable that Hattons have chosen running numbers from Stroudley coaches.

 

Given that, Hattons' application of lining around the fixed lights is consistent with the running numbers chosen.

 

What Hattons might usefully do, therefore, is:

 

(a) Change the running numbers to those for Billinton coaches. Nick Holliday of this parish has proposed 'best match' Billinton numbers for the models. 

 

(b) Delete the lining around the fixed lights.

 

Southern livery

 

Not my period of main interest by any means, but I agree, as with the SR coach you linked to (a Billinton bogie first), I would expect the bolections to be varnished and have no lining around them:

 

 403727422_BillintonBogieFirst.jpg.44b58be99d14cd6930a6fbcb2f7e7a88.jpg.0289a13afc1fe9a344e35ed6b209c17b.jpg.20a8b6e4eab1335b141e9b328ad3c92a.jpg

 

They are, for instance, even on a flush-sided Maunsell coach:

 

408472541_MaunsellBrake.jpg.29a8fb630714c77fea5300542354fc4a.jpg

 

 

Hattons treatment, below, I suspect is wrong in three respects:

 

(i) Painting the bolections green.  They should be varnished mahogany (the droplight colour is off in this respect).

 

(ii) Lining is applied around the bolections.  This should be deleted.

 

(iii) There is no gap between the lining around the vertical blind panels and the lining around the horizontal eaves panels and waist panels.  There should be a gap. however thin.  The lining around the panels is slightly distanced from the edge of the beading (in reality it would be on the curve), and this might have been positioned in order that it lines up on the horizontal with the lining around the bolections, which should not be there! 

 

Also, there is a serious issue regarding the lining of the eaves panels either side of the left hand door. 

 

genesis_sr_ps4.png.234303fd864ea2b5ff453e9c55234f18.png

 

As these are samples, it might not be too late to correct these issues.  Are you going to get in touch with Dave about this?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Edwardian
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20 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

The Brighton Liveried Coaches

 

What Hattons might usefully do, therefore, is:

 

(a) Change the running numbers to those for Billinton coaches. Nick Holliday of this parish has proposed 'best match' Billinton numbers for the models. 

 

 

As far as I can work out all the running numbers were chosen very early on and are what people have pre-ordered against, so I imagine this may be tricky to change. Given that they're not models of actual carriages, I'd settle for correct lining-out but wrong numbers for Billinton carriages, if I was buying them. (Which I'm not intending to.)

  

20 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Southern livery

 

Hattons treatment, below, I suspect is wrong in three respects:

 

(i) painting the bolections green.  They should be varnished mahogany (the droplight colour is off in this respect).

 

(ii) Lining is applied around the bolections.  This should be deleted.

 

(iii) There is no gap between the lining around the vertical blind panels and the lining around the horizontal eaves panels and waist panels.  There should be a gap. however thin.  The lining around the panels is slightly distance from the edge of the beading (in reality it would be on the curve), and this might have been positioned in order that it lines up on the horizontal with the lining around the bolections, which should not be there! 

 

Also, there is a serious issue regarding the lining of the eaves panels either side of the left hand door. 

 

Thank you for confirming my suspicions here. The lining should be on the edge of the beading, which would give the requisite gap. There has apparently been no problem printing up to the edge of the beading for the GWR and LMS/MR liveries, so should be technically possible. Really the Southern livery is just like the LMS/MR livery only in place of black beading edged yellow / gold it's green beading edged yellow. Plus of course the body is green not red!

  

20 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

As these are samples, it mat not be too late to correct these issues.  Are you going to get in touch with Dave about this?

 

He reads this thread, so I am hoping these posts will be sufficient. If he doesn't post a response, I'll give him a nudge.

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Question for Hattons:

I have pre-ordered a fair number of the SECR coaches, but I would like a reasonable rake of six-wheel thirds in addition, which at the moment with everything else that is being released by all and sundry, and me being a humble pensioner, I can't afford. So, after the first release of these SECR coaches is all sold out, will you be re-issuing them? 

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4 minutes ago, Budgie said:

Question for Hattons:

I have pre-ordered a fair number of the SECR coaches, but I would like a reasonable rake of six-wheel thirds in addition, which at the moment with everything else that is being released by all and sundry, and me being a humble pensioner, I can't afford. So, after the first release of these SECR coaches is all sold out, will you be re-issuing them? 

 

You would have to wait until after the 3rd batch of liveries at the very least. I can't see them repeating the liveries beforehand 

 

I'm rather hoping they do the darker purple lake livery next rather than doing the lighter livery being produced on the first batch.

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