RMweb Gold Hattons Dave Posted April 12, 2021 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 12, 2021 Hi all, Following on from our recent decorated samples update - I'm pleased to share that we now have photos of the samples for the vast majority of our first batch of coaches. Expected Q3 2021. Find out more, HERE 19 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted April 12, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, Hattons Dave said: Following on from our recent decorated samples update - I'm pleased to share that we now have photos of the samples for the vast majority of our first batch of coaches. Looking good. Trust you've noted the discussion of the SR livery in particular, a few posts back. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr chapman Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 I'm sure this has been asked but for the four packs, any chance of a pack of four 4 wheeler's and 6 wheeler's? 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainwright1 Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 21 hours ago, Hattons Dave said: Hi all, Following on from our recent decorated samples update - I'm pleased to share that we now have photos of the samples for the vast majority of our first batch of coaches. Expected Q3 2021. Find out more, HERE Hi Dave. Is there any likelyhood of a change to the livery for the SE & CR to the more appropriate darker red livery that would have been carried by these coaches ? All the best Ray 2 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BlueLightning Posted April 13, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 13, 2021 10 minutes ago, wainwright1 said: Hi Dave. Is there any likelyhood of a change to the livery for the SE & CR to the more appropriate darker red livery that would have been carried by these coaches ? All the best Ray Dave is just trying to save us some money Ray. I mean I would happily throw a few hundred at these carriages in SE&CR livery, but if they come out needing repainting because Hattons won't correct the livery, despite the number of times it's been mentioned (Where is that famous "listening to feedback" I keep hearing about?) then we might as well buy accurate ones that need a paint job instead!! Gary 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pre Grouping fan Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 I thought the livery was changed to be the lighter colour anyway, both being accurate for a different period. It makes it different from the birdcages released before. Though hopefully after the initial 3 batches have been released the darker livery will be produced 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainwright1 Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Pre Grouping fan said: I thought the livery was changed to be the lighter colour anyway, both being accurate for a different period. It makes it different from the birdcages released before. Though hopefully after the initial 3 batches have been released the darker livery will be produced Hi Matt. The issue was not questioning that there were two different shades of red used at different times, it was that these four and six wheeled coaches were unlikely to have carried the later light red livery which came into use just before and into the beginning of WW1, as it was only applied to a limited number of vehicles essentially new build or front line ones which were kept in the best condition. Whereas, they would have definitely carried the dark version which was a carry over from SER red. All the best Ray Edited April 13, 2021 by wainwright1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted April 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 13, 2021 SECR carriage livery is making my head hurt and confirming my thinking that my fantasy Loddon Bridge / Earley layout should be set in 1898. Improving the Southern livery should be straightforward and uncontroversial, I think. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainwright1 Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: SECR carriage livery is making my head hurt and confirming my thinking that my fantasy Loddon Bridge / Earley layout should be set in 1898. Improving the Southern livery should be straightforward and uncontroversial, I think. Aah yes, nice dark SER livery ! Through service from Redhill ? Edited April 13, 2021 by wainwright1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted April 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 13, 2021 22 minutes ago, wainwright1 said: Aah yes, nice dark SER livery ! Through service from Redhill ? From London Bridge! Plus the South Western from Waterloo. And a rather nice Great Western 38'6" clerestory tricomposite, the Liverpool-Folkestone through carriage. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted April 13, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 13, 2021 11 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: From London Bridge! Indeed. I was reminded elsewhere that there was a 17.25 London Bridge to Reading as late as 1964, I think. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Hattons Dave Posted April 13, 2021 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 13, 2021 23 hours ago, Compound2632 said: Looking good. Trust you've noted the discussion of the SR livery in particular, a few posts back. On 09/04/2021 at 12:15, Edwardian said: The Brighton Liveried Coaches These are finished in mahogany livery, applied under Stroudley and subsequently up to 1903, when umber and white was introduced. Stroudley vastly preferred varnished mahogany. Some Brighton built coaches, and those built by outside contractors, were of cheaper wood. These, like earlier Craven coaches, seem to have bee finished in a painted mahogany. For example, Stroudley 6-wheel First 661 of 1880 (the picture you linked to) was built with softwood panels. It is restored in a painted mahogany livery. The Hattons models are probably best understood as painted mahogany. The bolections (fitted to late-build Stroudley and Billinton coaches) seem to have been made of actual mahogany. Assuming they were varnished not painted over (I think it most unlikely they would have been painted over), there might be a slight contrast in finish. Ultimately, however, we have mahogany bolections and mahogany coloured bodies, so probably best left alone. As to whether there should be lining around the fixed lights, I would say 'no'. As you note, there is lining around the quarter lights of Stroudleys (seen both in contemporary pictures of varnished coaches and on preserved 661), where there are no bolections. Where there are bolections - as on Billinton coaches and as on the Hattons models - my judgment is that there should not be lining round the fixed lights. The clearest picture I can find is of a bogie coach of 1900 (in painted mahogany) where there is a good view of a lavatory window. What we are seeing above is the light reflected on the rim of the bolection around the fixed lavatory light; there is no additional lining line around it. However, despite the fact that the Hattons coaches are closer to Billinton coaches than they are to Stroudleys (eerily close in some cases, given that the resemblance is coincidental), it is notable that Hattons have chosen running numbers from Stroudley coaches. Given that, Hattons' application of lining around the fixed lights is consistent with the running numbers chosen. What Hattons might usefully do, therefore, is: (a) Change the running numbers to those for Billinton coaches. Nick Holliday of this parish has proposed 'best match' Billinton numbers for the models. (b) Delete the lining around the fixed lights. Southern livery Not my period of main interest by any means, but I agree, as with the SR coach you linked to (a Billinton bogie first), I would expect the bolections to be varnished and have no lining around them: They are, for instance, even on a flush-sided Maunsell coach: Hattons treatment, below, I suspect is wrong in three respects: (i) Painting the bolections green. They should be varnished mahogany (the droplight colour is off in this respect). (ii) Lining is applied around the bolections. This should be deleted. (iii) There is no gap between the lining around the vertical blind panels and the lining around the horizontal eaves panels and waist panels. There should be a gap. however thin. The lining around the panels is slightly distanced from the edge of the beading (in reality it would be on the curve), and this might have been positioned in order that it lines up on the horizontal with the lining around the bolections, which should not be there! Also, there is a serious issue regarding the lining of the eaves panels either side of the left hand door. As these are samples, it might not be too late to correct these issues. Are you going to get in touch with Dave about this? Thanks for the thorough feedback. We certainly will be taking this into account and updating the liveries accordingly. We will showcase updated colour layouts for them and seek further feedback before proceeding. 8 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pre Grouping fan Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 Looking back at the Southern livery, I didn't see anyone else pick it up but the lining and lettering looks too orange. Looking at pictures, the lining should be more yellow/straw and the lettering made to look like gold leaf. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 3 hours ago, wainwright1 said: Aah yes, nice dark SER livery ! Through service from Redhill ? Looking at the samples, I suspect there would be some consensus that the current shade for SE&CR lake is too light and too red. The question becomes. with what is it replaced? The traditional modellers' practice was to paint SE&CR coaches in a reddish crimson lake, The current vogue, apparently sparked by someone producing a undated paint sample to the SE&CR society, is to pain a dark purple lake that tends to look brown. There was a heated debate elsewhere on RMWeb about this. The result of which is that (i) I conclude there is genuine uncertainty, and (ii) I suspect that the dark purple brown is a rather late, post 1910 colour and that before then SE&CR and SER lake was a purple-crimson. This is the livery Gould describes as rich purple lake fine-lined in gold,. AVS1998 cited O. S. Nock as stating "the carriage livery was a rich dark lake, as near as makes no matter to the colour used by the Great Western between the two" chocolate and cream" periods. When new the SECR coach roofs were white, and the striking affect was enhanced by use of scarlet roof boards on all the principal expresses. ". Now, allowing for the frailties of colour memory and the imprecision of postcard colourists, that is certainly what colourised or colour illustrations of the Edwardian SE&CR seem to show with a good degree of consistency, e.g. So, I would suggest something redder and lighter than the 1912 condition Bachmann birdcages. If we turn to the GWR 1912 livery, which O S Nock says is near as damn it to the SE&CR, we have something darker and more purple in cast than, say, the crimson lake of the Midland Railway, but not so dark or brown as the Bachmann colour or the Phoenix Paints shade, which I suspect best represent the post 1910 shade. These two shots of the preserved GW railmotor No. 93 in 1912 lake show the difference lighting conditions make, but nevertheless, is a colour readily distinguishable from the Midland livery. 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainwright1 Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 2 hours ago, Hattons Dave said: Thanks for the thorough feedback. We certainly will be taking this into account and updating the liveries accordingly. We will showcase updated colour layouts for them and seek further feedback before proceeding. Hi Dave. Just in case this did not get to you, this is what I posted on the 8th February with regard to the SE & CR livery issue. Posted February 8 (edited) For clarity lets look at the livery details with specific reference to SE & CR 4 wheeled and 6 wheeled coaches. On 05/02/2021 at 15:29, phil-b259 said: On 05/02/2021 at 15:18, wainwright1 said: Aah yes. The colour that Hattons should paint their SE & CR 4/6 wheelers ! Ray Why? It is a matter of historical FACT that the SECR used TWO different base colours at different times (but keeping the same lining style). One was the more reddish hue seen on the preserved KESR line and Hattons forthcoming models while the other is the more purple looking one as seen on the Bluebells 4 wheelers and Bachmann's 'Birdcage' stock. BOTH are prototypically correct and BOTH can be used with locos ornately lined out in the Wainwright style. Expand The point of reference is SE & CR Carriages by Phil Coutanche, with permission of Lightmoor Press. I have also spoken to some fellow members of the South Eastern and Chatham Railway Society to confirm details. The SE & CR existed as a joint management committee from 1899 to 1923, a total of around 24 years. To summarise: The original liveries of the two constituent companies would have continued for a period - Varnished teak for the LC & DR and deep crimson lake for the SER. After 1899 some coaches were finished with stained and grained upper halves and crimson lake on the lower half. I am advised that there are no known pictures so presumably a relative few. From 1901 all coaches painted deep crimson. This would have become uniform across the whole fleet for up to 10 years or more, covering 4 wheeled, 6 wheeled and bogie coaches. I have been told that this was basically a continuation of the SER Crimson. (As used by Bachmann). From 1910 it was noted that some coaches were appearing in a lighter shade than previously used. This would probably be restricted to new and front line stock in particular the 60ft stock as produced by Bachmann. Older coaches especially 4 wheelers which were getting on for 40 years old and mostly heading for scrapping, would not likely be repainted, but more probably re-varnished. (Which would in effect make the colour go even darker). In 1914 the Great War started and there would have been cut-backs in materials including paint and reductions in manpower to apply it. So the application of varnish may have become more the norm to maintain the finish on the coaches when possible. During 1916 they started painting coaches in a dark umber without lining which continued up until the grouping in 1923. (As used by Bachmann). I would therefore that assert that the following would be the appropriate for models: Deep Crimson Lighter Crimson Dark Umber 4 wheeled coaches All Unlikely Unlikely 6 wheeled coaches All Very few, if any All Bogie coaches All New and frontline All So to finalise: Yes the SE & CR did use two shades of crimson paint, but I would definitely say that the lighter livery used for a very few years, which Hattons have chosen and shown on their preproduction models is incorrect for four wheeled and probably six wheeled coaches. Maybe its not too late to correct it ? I am advised by a member that the Bluebell Railway Coach Department painted their coaches to match original Dark Crimson paint samples found on their coach bodies, and it is quite possible that the Lighter Crimson colour that the K&ESR have applied is inappropriate for those particular coaches. Interestingly, there is however scope for Bachmann to do another run of their 60ft stock in the lighter shade of crimson if they are interested. Ray Edited February 8 by wainwright1 2 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 6 minutes ago, wainwright1 said: Hi Dave. Just in case this did not get to you, this is what I posted on the 8th February with regard to the SE & CR livery issue. Posted February 8 (edited) For clarity lets look at the livery details with specific reference to SE & CR 4 wheeled and 6 wheeled coaches. On 05/02/2021 at 15:29, phil-b259 said: On 05/02/2021 at 15:18, wainwright1 said: Aah yes. The colour that Hattons should paint their SE & CR 4/6 wheelers ! Ray Why? It is a matter of historical FACT that the SECR used TWO different base colours at different times (but keeping the same lining style). One was the more reddish hue seen on the preserved KESR line and Hattons forthcoming models while the other is the more purple looking one as seen on the Bluebells 4 wheelers and Bachmann's 'Birdcage' stock. BOTH are prototypically correct and BOTH can be used with locos ornately lined out in the Wainwright style. Expand The point of reference is SE & CR Carriages by Phil Coutanche, with permission of Lightmoor Press. I have also spoken to some fellow members of the South Eastern and Chatham Railway Society to confirm details. The SE & CR existed as a joint management committee from 1899 to 1923, a total of around 24 years. To summarise: The original liveries of the two constituent companies would have continued for a period - Varnished teak for the LC & DR and deep crimson lake for the SER. After 1899 some coaches were finished with stained and grained upper halves and crimson lake on the lower half. I am advised that there are no known pictures so presumably a relative few. From 1901 all coaches painted deep crimson. This would have become uniform across the whole fleet for up to 10 years or more, covering 4 wheeled, 6 wheeled and bogie coaches. I have been told that this was basically a continuation of the SER Crimson. (As used by Bachmann). From 1910 it was noted that some coaches were appearing in a lighter shade than previously used. This would probably be restricted to new and front line stock in particular the 60ft stock as produced by Bachmann. Older coaches especially 4 wheelers which were getting on for 40 years old and mostly heading for scrapping, would not likely be repainted, but more probably re-varnished. (Which would in effect make the colour go even darker). In 1914 the Great War started and there would have been cut-backs in materials including paint and reductions in manpower to apply it. So the application of varnish may have become more the norm to maintain the finish on the coaches when possible. During 1916 they started painting coaches in a dark umber without lining which continued up until the grouping in 1923. (As used by Bachmann). I would therefore that assert that the following would be the appropriate for models: Deep Crimson Lighter Crimson Dark Umber 4 wheeled coaches All Unlikely Unlikely 6 wheeled coaches All Very few, if any All Bogie coaches All New and frontline All So to finalise: Yes the SE & CR did use two shades of crimson paint, but I would definitely say that the lighter livery used for a very few years, which Hattons have chosen and shown on their preproduction models is incorrect for four wheeled and probably six wheeled coaches. Maybe its not too late to correct it ? I am advised by a member that the Bluebell Railway Coach Department painted their coaches to match original Dark Crimson paint samples found on their coach bodies, and it is quite possible that the Lighter Crimson colour that the K&ESR have applied is inappropriate for those particular coaches. Interestingly, there is however scope for Bachmann to do another run of their 60ft stock in the lighter shade of crimson if they are interested. Ray Edited February 8 by wainwright1 Thanks, Ray. I notice that you've just ignored my post, rather than engaged with it, which means that it is hard to identify the points of agreement or disagreement, so let me try this. Is this (below) what you/the Bluebell contend for as "dark crimson" as applied pre-1910? It can look a little dark and a little brown, and I suspect could benefit from a bit of lightening when applied to smaller scale models. 4mm models using the Phoenix shade tend to come out darker and browner than the real thing generally appears. I believe we agree that this was likely a continuation of SER crimson. We also agree that there was a change in shade post 1910, though you say this was to a lighter shade. if so, the Bachmann coaches dating from 1912 would not have appeared in the 'deep crimson'. 2 4 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 (edited) On the prototype, I've always felt the key to understanding and replicating 'something lake' is not the 'something', it is the layers of varnish that provide the feeling of 'lake'. For models, varnish doesn't scale, so we have to resort to exploring the 'something'. Here are some potential 'crimson lakes', some of which are close to the equally problematic 'mahogany'. Edited April 13, 2021 by Miss Prism 3 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Model Railway Guy Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 I have to admit, having just looked at the SE&CR samples I'm not keen on the lighter red either. The detail looks fantastic but the bright red almost makes it seem a bit toy-like at a glance. There is another image where the coaches are pictured with the P Class and after seeing that I can understand why they've gone for the brighter shade as they do look very colourful together. But still, I personally would have preferred the darker more muted colours that were shown on the original announcement. I can't claim to know anything about what's prototypically correct but those were just my own thoughts, which may lead me to not picking up a set of the SE&CR coaches as I had planned. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted April 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 13, 2021 37 minutes ago, Miss Prism said: On the prototype, I've always felt the key to understanding and replicating 'something lake' is not the 'something', it is the layers of varnish that provide the feeling of 'lake'. For models, varnish doesn't scale, so we have to resort to exploring the 'something'. Here are some potential 'crimson lakes', some of which are close to the equally problematic 'mahogany'. If I was to pick the Midland crimson lake from that chart, I'd plump for the middle one. But monitors vary, of course. My younger son saw the screen from a distance and said "shades of burgundy". But that may just reflect his preference in wines. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwardian Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 (edited) Considering the GNR coaches ... Like the LNWR and SE&CR, the GNR body style is distinctive and, therefore, not a match for the more generic panelling style adopted by Hattons and, then, Hornby. The same is true of the characteristic GN roof profile. So, how well is the illusion of a GN coach acheived? Surprisingly good for the Hattons, I'd say. Hornby, below, has chosen to line out in a way that simply seeks to deny the actual moulded panelling. This is unlikely to look effective save at some distance. Hornby have also left significantly 'unteaked' portions, which is also odd and unattractive. In contrast, the Hattons 4-wheel brake third (below) is a much more refined model and the livery sample looks pretty compelling: Again, it's not lining to follow the round-cornered moulded panelling, but as per the straight, right-angle semi-round beading employed by the GNR. The teaking effect is subtle and warm and applied across the while body, so that immediately looks better. The colour of the lining also looks far better than Hornby's. Based on the example above, Hattons correctly omit the lining to the eaves panels (that Hornby adds). The Hattons vertical lines also terminate correctly with a 'dart'. Hornby's do not appear to. Again, while Hornby's colour recalls those rather aneamic Gresley bogies it once produced, the warm colour of the Hattons looks much closer to the preserved examples. A further bonus is that Hattons' flat-topped panelled ducket favours the GN (Hornby's steel-sheet Stroudley style ducket obviously does not). Similarly, the Hattons ends suit a GN appearance far better than the clearly Stroudley-style Hornby ends. Under the solebar, the Hattons coach has the advantage of vacuum brake gear. GNR coaches had lower footboards. Hattons' are at a correct height. Hornby's, if fitted, are not. One suggestion I have, is that, if possible, the buffer guides are painted the same colour as the solebar/headstocks. The one thing Hornby has got right! All in all, it's hard to critique a coach wearing a livery that is not designed for the body style of the model. I do think that Hattons have made a very good job of convincing us that, nevertheless, we might be looking at something resembling a GN coach. Edited April 13, 2021 by Edwardian spelling! 13 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 30 minutes ago, Compound2632 said: My younger son saw the screen from a distance and said "shades of burgundy". Burgundy is a good avenue to crimson lakes. I have added a burgundy (the fourth one down): 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wainwright1 Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 3 hours ago, Edwardian said: Thanks, Ray. I notice that you've just ignored my post, rather than engaged with it, which means that it is hard to identify the points of agreement or disagreement, so let me try this. Is this (below) what you/the Bluebell contend for as "dark crimson" as applied pre-1910? It can look a little dark and a little brown, and I suspect could benefit from a bit of lightening when applied to smaller scale models. 4mm models using the Phoenix shade tend to come out darker and browner than the real thing generally appears. I believe we agree that this was likely a continuation of SER crimson. We also agree that there was a change in shade post 1910, though you say this was to a lighter shade. if so, the Bachmann coaches dating from 1912 would not have appeared in the 'deep crimson'. Sorry our posts crossed each other. (By the way, some of the content of my earlier post has not carried over, making it a little confusing). The coaches you have illustrated were painted to match an original sample of paintwork which the Bluebell Railway has. Several members of the Bluebell coach workshop staff are also members of the South Eastern and Chatham Railway Society and were involved in the specification of the paint finish.. I have tins of Cherry Scale SER coach red and Phoenix Precision SE & CR coach red (Wainwright period) which are very similar in shade. These were prepared by Bob Shepherd the original proprietor of Precision Paints who was very careful in his research. In fact I do have tins of Bob's original mix and the current one for the SE & CR colour. He did in fact change it and make it darker. The South Eastern & Chatham Railway Society were consulted by Bachmann for the livery specifications for the C Class and the 60ft coaches, so I would think that the representation on the models that have already been produced is reasonably accurate. I think that the finish on the Bachmann coaches looks right, although as already been said, they could also do another run and apply the lighter shade for the relatively short period that this was used. So to recap, I think all coaches would have carried the dark red, but do not think that any four wheeled coaches and probably very few if any six wheelers would have carried the lighter shade of red. All the best Ray 5 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Compound2632 Posted April 13, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 13, 2021 2 hours ago, Miss Prism said: Burgundy is a good avenue to crimson lakes. Whereas it is clear that the Directors of many lines were claret drinkers. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWsTrains Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 On 24/02/2021 at 01:35, Hattons Dave said: The images here also showcase the lighting system which will be available with our Genesis coaches. Dave, to quote from the Hattons Blog about 1 year ago: "Hello ****, the versions that have lighting will also include an 18-pin decoder socket. If a decoder is then installed you'll be able to control the lights from your controller. I hope this helps." With no DCC control chip, how can the lights be controlled / switched? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted April 13, 2021 Share Posted April 13, 2021 2 hours ago, BWsTrains said: With no DCC control chip, how can the lights be controlled / switched? They'd be on if there was power to the track they're standing on - ie they would be lit on a DC layout whilst the train was moving, and lit all the time on DCC. 1 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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