'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[johnd]

4 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

They'd be on if there was power to the track they're standing on - ie they would be lit on a DC layout whilst the train was moving, and lit all the time on DCC.

So further expense if you want them to be switchable, suitable decoder? 

[Edwardian]

Going Great Western ... 

 

There are, of course, again some limitations imposed by the moulding.  These limitations have been covered, so I'll restrict comments to the livery.

 

The tooling allows the GWR lined livery to be represented fully, both the Venetian Red window bolections and the cream surround to the drop lights, and the samples look very good.

 

Particularly pleasing is the distance line on the cream panels, present on the preserved Dean era coaches at Didcot, though rapidly disappearing at distance.  The rather pale cream seems entirely appropriate. It may be whiter than many are used to, and I suspect that varnish may have yellowed it over time, but, again, this is a good match for the preserved examples at Didcot. 

 

 

I have just three comments/suggestions.

 

Two relate to colour:

 

- As I think Miss P has already dealt with, the droplights and bolections are too red.  I believe the official designation was Venetian Red, but "red" should not be taken as too literally red, as with the Indian Red of locomotive frames. I find paints labelled as "leather" come out quite well.  

 

- I defer to those with greater knowledge, but, to me, I would say there is rather too much milk in that chocolate, and it could do with being darker.

 

The third point concerns lining. The raised beading is black.  This applies to both the upper and lower portions of the body, and you can see from both the Hatton sample and the Didcot coach that black painted beading runs round both the chocolate waist panels and the base and ends of the body sides, as well as on the upper body.

 

The actual detail of the lining could be mind-blowingly complex. For instance, the HMRS livery pamphlet shows a lining scheme c.1902 for Dean clerestories in which the cream eaves panels are lined (from nearest the cream to the black beading: Windsor Brown 1/8", pale cream 1/8", black 1/4", gold 3/8".  The overall effect is achieved on a model by a gold line (sometimes best represented with a non-metallic straw paint). 

 

In 2019, my camera battery ran out just as I arrived at Didcot's carriage shed, so I have no option but to purloin the picture below from Mike Oxon's post elsewhere on RMWeb.  This shows all the points raised rather nicely:

 

 

The Hattons model is correct in having the beading black. Hornby's isn't, by the way, as it has left the beading brown. 

 

Hattons correctly line the beading outer edge (in reality on the curve of the moulding) in gold on the lower panels but not the upper panels.  The effect of the gold against the cream is subtle, but it is quite noticeable by its absence and the incorrect contrast between the lined lower black beading and the unlined upper black beading to my eye is obvious and somewhat jarring.

 

Please can this be amended?

 

Hattons have liveries that include gold or yellow beading edge lining, e.g. the Southern already discussed and the LMS, which, like the Great Western, involves black beading edged yellow/gold throughout. I may have to cancel my GW pre-orders in favour of LMS, as the lining is the one part of the coach livery I wish to retain; but that's my problem!

 

 

Above: Hornby: Full marks for lining the edge of the cream panels, but nil point for leaving the beading chocolate and lining round the quarter lights instead of providing bolections. 

Hornby, incidentally, has the upper beading lined. As I say, they're not black, as they should be, but they look better for being lined (even though the absence of bolections has tempted Hornby into lining round the quarter lights - as with other liveries, this is a solecism. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 14, 2021 by Edwardian
spelling!

[wainwright1]

32 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Going Great Western ... 

 

There are, of course, again some limitations imposed by the moulding.  These limitations have been covered, so I'll restrict comments to the livery.

 

The tooling allows the GWR lined livery to be represented fully, both the Venetian Red window bolections and the cream surround to the drop lights, and the samples look very good.

 

Particularly pleasing is the distance line on the cream panels, present on the preserved Dean era coaches at Didcot, though rapidly disappearing at distance.  The rather pale cream seems entirely appropriate. It may be whiter than many are used to, and I suspect that varnish may have yellowed it over time, but, again, this is a good match for the preserved examples at Didcot. 

 

 

I have just three comments/suggestions.

 

Two relate to colour:

 

- As I think Miss P has already dealt with, the droplights and bolections are too red.  I believe the official designation was Venetian Red, but "red" should not be taken as too literally red, as with the Indian Red of locomotive frames. I find paints labelled as "leather" come out quite well.  

 

- I defer to those with greater knowledge, but, to me, I would say there is rather too much milk in that chocolate, and it could do with being darker.

 

The third point concerns lining. The raised beading is black.  This applies to both the upper and lower portions of the body, and you can see from both the Hatton sample and the Didcot coach that black painted beading runs round both the chocolate waist panels and the base and ends of the body sides, as well as on the upper body.

 

The actual detail of the lining could be mind-blowingly complex. For instance, the HMRS livery pamphlet shows a lining scheme c.1902 for Dean clerestories in which the cream eaves panels are lined (from nearest the cream to the black beading: Windsor Brown 1/8", pale cream 1/8", black 1/4", gold 3/8".  The overall effect is achieved on a model by a gold line (sometimes best represented with a non-metallic straw paint). 

 

In 2019, my camera battery ran out just as I arrived at Didcot's carriage shed, so I have no option but to purloin the picture below from Mike Oxon's post elsewhere on RMWeb.  This shows all the points raised rather nicely:

 

 

The Hattons model is correct in having the beading black. Hornby's isn't, by the way, as it has left the beading brown. 

 

Hattons correctly line the beading outer edge (in reality on the curve of the moulding) in gold on the lower panels but not the upper panels.  The effect of the gold against the cream is subtle, but it is quite noticeable by its absence and the incorrect contrast between the lined lower black beading and the unlined upper black beading to my eye is obvious and somewhat jarring.

 

Please can this be amended?

 

Hattons have liveries that include gold or yellow beading edge lining, e.g. the Southern already discussed and the LMS, which, like the Great Western, involves black beading edged yellow/gold throughout. I may have to cancel my GW pre-orders in favour of LMS, as the lining is the one part of the coach livery I wish to retain; but that's my problem!

 

 

Above: Hornby: Full marks for lining the edge of the cream panels, but nil point for leaving the beading chocolate and lining round the quarter lights instead of providing bolections. 

Hornby, incidentally, has the upper beading lined. As I say, they're not black, as they should be, but they look better for being lined (even though the absence of bolections has tempted Hornby into lining round the quarter lights - as with other liveries, this is a solecism. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Glad that I do not have to paint these !!!

 

Ray

[Mike Harvey]

7 hours ago, johnd said:

So further expense if you want them to be switchable, suitable decoder? 

I wonder what prototype situation buyers might want to represent. Were the lights controlled from a central point for all compartments, or individually per compartment or lamp. Sounds like wiring for all the options could have been a nightmare.

[Oldddudders]

23 minutes ago, Mike Harvey said:

Were the lights controlled from a central point for all compartments, or individually per compartment or lamp. 

For generic coaches, all the options are true!

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Hattons correctly line the beading outer edge (in reality on the curve of the moulding) in gold on the lower panels but not the upper panels.  The effect of the gold against the cream is subtle, but it is quite noticeable by its absence and the incorrect contrast between the lined lower black beading and the unlined upper black beading to my eye is obvious and somewhat jarring.

 

It looks to me that the gold lining is there on the eves panels and I think I can see it on the panels between the windows. The one place I don't think I can see it is around the door eves panels. I think one would need to see one in the flesh to be sure, or at least more photos from other angles.

 

I do have to agree about the milk chocolate although I think that when one looks at photos of preserved Great Western carriages with steel panelling and in 1930s liveries, the effect is a milkier chocolate than on the 4-wheel brake third you posted. But one also sees this on restored carriages at Didcot that have not been fully finished, as here (in strong sunlight):

 

 

[Hugh Llewelyn, CC BY-SA 2.0, via Wikimedia Commons]

 

Compare the finished carriage to the right. (Which itself looks milkier than the photo you posted, though they are in fact very nearly the same, see here.) So I wonder if our old friend coats of varnish is coming into play, along with lighting? The colour Hattons have used may well be a good match for the specification, for all I know, but the final appearance depends on many factors. Perhaps a Didcot carriage specialist can comment?

 

A thing that does stick out to me is that it is only the raised portion of the bolection moulding that is red/mahogany, where it should be the entire window reveal. That at least is easy enough to touch in if you're willing to take the carriage apart.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

24 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

It looks to me that the gold lining is there on the eves panels and I think I can see it on the panels between the windows. The one place I don't think I can see it is around the door eves panels. I think one would need to see one in the flesh to be sure, or at least more photos from other angles.

 

I do have to agree about the milk chocolate although I think that when one looks at photos of preserved Great Western carriages with steel panelling and in 1930s liveries, the effect is a milkier chocolate than on the 4-wheel brake third you posted. But one also sees this on restored carriages at Didcot that have not been fully finished, as here (in strong sunlight):

 

 

[Hugh Llewelyn, CC BY-SA 2.0, via Wikimedia Commons]

 

Compare the finished carriage to the right. (Which itself looks milkier than the photo you posted, though they are in fact very nearly the same, see here.) So I wonder if our old friend coats of varnish is coming into play, along with lighting? The colour Hattons have used may well be a good match for the specification, for all I know, but the final appearance depends on many factors. Perhaps a Didcot carriage specialist can comment?

 

A thing that does stick out to me is that it is only the raised portion of the bolection moulding that is red/mahogany, where it should be the entire window reveal. That at least is easy enough to touch in if you're willing to take the carriage apart.

 

I am not really qualified to speculate, but GW green pre-1906 was dark. Really dark. Compared with the more familiar chrome green.  My aesthetic response is that the darker chocolate works with the darker green, the 'milk chocolate', not so much. I don't think GW coaches at any astage appeared as light as the milk chocolate picture posted.  

 

I have absolutely no basis for saying so, but I wonder if the chocolate appeared darker once upon a time ....  If so, it might simply reflect a difference in type or number of coats of varnish, in accordance with your suggestion.  That is a highly suspect and probably incorrect comment (!), and the chocolate looks milkier in strong sunlight.  However, I am pretty confident that the Hattons shade is coming across as significantly too light. 

 

HMRS colour patches give GW coach brown as lighter than 'Windsor Brown', but it is still dark; dark chocolate not milk!

[Compound2632]

45 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

I am not really qualified to speculate, but GW green pre-1906 was dark. Really dark. Compared with the more familiar chrome green.  

 

I have seen the argument made that there was no change in the pigment colour, only in the number of coats of varnish - decreasing as the years went by. (I forget where - @Miss Prism probably can tell.) No doubt as the 20th century wore on there were changes in varnish technology that meant that fewer coats of varnish were needed.

 

In the photo I linked of the 4-wheel brake third next to the bogie third at Didcot, it seems to me there is a difference in depth of varnish between the two carriages: the brake third looks very slightly "flatter".

 

Did 19th century varnish make the base colour look darker, even when new? That's certainly the story for the origin of cream upper panels - originally intended to be white. Undoubtedly it darkened with age, under the effects of a polluted atmosphere - or of its own accord?

 

We're getting close to old master* restoration territory here, which is well-known to be laden with controversy.

 

*Not the appropriate term, really, for the linked case, but calling Artemisia Gentileschi an "old mistress" seems not quite right, somehow.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Compound2632

[Miss Prism]

12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

(I forget where - @Miss Prism probably can tell.)

 

As far as I am aware, the origin of the notion of 'no change to post-1881 GWR loco green pigment colour, only the number of coats of varnish' is Bob Shephard, owner and paint chemist of Precision Paints until 2004, who had some original Swindon colour matching panels. Regrettably, I do not have a current means of contacting him.

[Michael Hodgson]

6 hours ago, Edwardian said:

I defer to those with greater knowledge, but, to me, I would say there is rather too much milk in that chocolate, and it could do with being darker.

 

The Bournville factory is in LMS territory, whereas Fry's were at Keynsham on the GWR's patch.   

Fry's got taken over  by Cadbury's so it's hardly surprising the chocolate now looks more like Fruit & Nut than Fry's Chocolate Cream !

[Dana Ashdown]

7 hours ago, Edwardian said:

I defer to those with greater knowledge, but, to me, I would say there is rather too much milk in that chocolate, and it could do with being darker.

 

I believe that the GWR chocolate was lighter prior to 1904 (and looks it in some photographs), so this might be appropriate for these carriages, considering that they have oil lamps. Also, Hattons' grab handles are probably suitable for 1880s period GWR carriages.

 

Dana

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

As far as I am aware, the origin of the notion of 'no change to post-1881 GWR loco green pigment colour, only the number of coats of varnish' is Bob Shephard, owner and paint chemist of Precision Paints until 2004, who had some original Swindon colour matching panels. Regrettably, I do not have a current means of contacting him.

 

Yes, I should have added that, because the point is made with reference to the coach brown; I had always understood that the change in green post 1906 was produced by a change to the varnishing, rather than the pigment. I confess, it's been a while since I read anything on that.

[Compound2632]

52 minutes ago, Dana Ashdown said:

I believe that the GWR chocolate was lighter prior to 1904

 

On what evidence?

[Edwardian]

15 hours ago, Dana Ashdown said:

I believe that the GWR chocolate was lighter prior to 1904 (and looks it in some photographs), so this might be appropriate for these carriages, considering that they have oil lamps. 

 

Dana

 

14 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

On what evidence?

 

Apparently the Railway Engineer of August 1895 described the coach livery. That would be more useful if I had a copy.

 

Perhaps Dana is thinking of The Locomotive magazine Volume 1, No. 3, March 1896 (cited at GWR.Org), which states: "The carriages are painted a light brown umber on the lower panels 

 

The HMRS pamphlet referenced earlier was edited by J N Slinn and is a revised edition of 1974. It cannot, therefore, take account of any later research that might have been done.

 

It has only one colour sample as "coach brown". It is a dark chocolate shade.

 

However, it also says, based on what evidence I cannot say:

 

It may have been as early as 1908* that the marked change to all-over brown took place. However, by 1909 the change was well under way. This brown was a warmer shade than that used previously; it had been foreshadowed by an experimental rake painted all-brown in 1903.** It is also believed that the two-colour coaches of last five years of the livery described in the [1871-1908] section used this shade of brown.

 

Note that no reference is given for that last, rather crucial, sentence.

 

The "last five years" would be 1903/04-1908/9. Assuming this uncorroborated belief to be correct, and assuming the "warmer" does not mean "darker", but rather the reverse, the situation would seem to be the converse of Dana's assertion.  How much 'warmer' or lighter any new shade might have been is not clear. 

 

Hattons use the monogram in combination with the gartered crest for First Class, which, though accounts vary, suggests 1880s through to 1903/4, or 1906, i.e. entirely or mostly before the brown went warmer (if, indeed, it did), though they also use it with the crests, which suggests from 1904.

 

I remain of the view that the current Hattons brown shade is uncharacteristically light and would benefit from darkening somewhat. 

 

Perhaps a consensus can be built around the fact that this is a generic coach in a representative GW lined chocolate and cream, get the lining scheme right and make the chocolate darker as a more representative shade?

 

Note also that the bolections and droplights are given as varnished mahogany in the HMRS text. 

 

* Railway Magazine, October 1908, p346

** History of the Great Western Railway, E T MacDermot, Vol. 2, p305   

 

 

[atom3624]

One thing I've noticed is that woodgrain effect is one of the best I've seen on any model rolling stock - nice job.

 

Al.

[Zunnan]

I have to say I wasn't expecting to be quite so drawn to the GNR coaches, those really are something.

 

The LMS livery is also really quite pleasing to my eyes. I was expecting it to look good following the tweaks made after some sage advice, but not quite that good. Bring on the Midland variants! I'm also quite pleasantly surprised by the LNWR livery, I was quietly sceptical that it wouldn't work around the panelling of these coaches but the end effect is quite fetching. So much so I may have accidentally ordered one or two...

[GNR Dave]

Roof profile and rounded corners to the panelling aside, the Hattons GNR coaches do look very good and quite 'believable'. By comparison, the Hornby effort looks rather toy like IMHO.

I have purchased the Hornby versions in 3 other liveries, and been happy with the product, but Hattons will get my money for the GNR stock.

[Venator]

I have the entire selection of SE&CR coaches on pre order. To be honest I am not too fussed about a particular shade of red, even in preservation coaches ostensibly painted the same colour fade and deteriorate at different rates. That said everyone seems convinced the Bluebell application is correct rather than the K&ESR. I don't know , perhaps I've missed it, what the evidence for that is? I don't think the chaps at the K&ESR Carriage & Wagon would have chosen said livery without due diligence. I admit my bias, I am a K&ESR member and what attracted me to the Hattons coaches were their similarity to the K&ESR 4 wheelers.

[BWsTrains]

On 15/04/2021 at 00:59, Compound2632 said:

We're getting close to old master* restoration territory here, which is well-known to be laden with controversy.

 

Stephen,

 

a truly fascinating article which at the same time places the debate here on the nuances of RTR 4-wheel coach lining and other fine detailing in an appropriate context!

 

Given cost constraints, I suspect Hattons have come as close as any RTR manufacturer is likely to on such a complex project, given the holy grail of "totally accurate" cannot be fully agreed by the customers and is never likely to be. 

 

Colin

Edited April 15, 2021 by BWsTrains

[BWsTrains]

On 14/04/2021 at 19:51, Edwardian said:

There are, of course, again some limitations imposed by the moulding.  These limitations have been covered,

 

Edwardian,

 

could you kindly point me to where these issues were covered, I've not been following closely.

 

Thanks,

 

Colin

[Edwardian]

8 hours ago, BWsTrains said:

 

Edwardian,

 

could you kindly point me to where these issues were covered, I've not been following closely.

 

Thanks,

 

Colin

 

The following is not intended as criticism, as a generic range has to have the most typical features in order to be all things to all men.  Further, the Hattons body sides do allow a very accurate rendition of the GW lined chocolate and cream livery, so, the overall impression will be recognisably Great Western, which is the key aim and, indeed, the most one can reasonably expect from a generic range.

 

However, in summary (and off the top of my head):

 

- GW coaches have turn-unders at the ends.

 

- The panel style only really approximates GW practice from the 1890s, by which time the GW had pretty much given up on building 6-wheelers.  The 1880s were typified by deeper eaves panels.  It's quite a complex area and reference should be had to Penrhos.

 

- Later 4-wheelers (those most consistent with the panel style) were associated with a 3-arc or elliptical roof profile, not the single arc of the models.

 

- Some later 4-wheelers were often longer than Hattons' 28', e.g. brake thirds at 31'.  

 

- 'duckets' (a vulgar term not employed by the GW!) were not flat-topped.  Duckets or windows at the ends were not unknown, but not that usual. Where there are end windows, this is more likely a single central window. Such features are more likely to occur on earlier coaches with much deeper eaves panels and single arc rooves.

 

- Hattons have a sensibly 'generic' commode handle. The GW had a distinctively curly type. 

 

- Some absorbed railway coaches might be closer to the Hattons look, e.g. have flat ends. 

 

In conclusion, you can see the Hattons coaches almost as a synthesis of GW styles; 1890s sides (albeit without the end turn-under) and 1880s roof profile and occasional end position for duckets.  So, there are GW characteristic if not quite the combination of features seen on the prototype. You cannot, however, sensibly criticise a generic range for not resembling any particular prototype.  What you get here is a prototype literate and detailed coach with a very good recreation of GW livery that should look the part overall and be perfectly acceptable for most people. 

 

I hope that helps!

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

Flat ends aside, I feel that the plain arc roof breaks the 1890s monotony of three-arc roof GW carriages - bearing in mind that for the period indicated by the livery choices, there would have been plenty of the plain arc roof carriages about. The challenge now is to finish the Ratio carriages to the same standard! (There might be scope for pre-printed sides here, as pioneered by Slaters for their 7 mm scale kits. What about it, Peco?)

[BWsTrains]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

In conclusion, you can see the Hattons coaches almost as a synthesis of GW styles; 1890s sides (albeit without the end turn-under) and 1880s roof profile and occasional end position for duckets.  So, there are GW characteristic if not quite the combination of features seen on the prototype. You cannot, however, sensibly criticise a generic range for not resembling any particular prototype.  What you get here is a prototype literate and detailed coach with a very good recreation of GW livery that should look the part overall and be perfectly acceptable for most people. 

 

I hope that helps!

 

Thanks very much, your entire set of comments were most helpful, I just avoided repeating them all in my reply!

 

Fortunately I'm only interested in the 4-wheel variety. Pity though about the Brake Third as I imagine that'd not be the only 31ft coach missed by sticking only to 28ft 4 wheel offerings.

 

 

 

[Edwardian]

1 minute ago, BWsTrains said:

 

Thanks very much, your entire set of comments were most helpful, I just avoided repeating them all in my reply!

 

Fortunately I'm only interested in the 4-wheel variety. Pity though about the Brake Third as I imagine that'd not be the only 31ft coach missed by sticking only to 28ft 4 wheel offerings.

 

 

 

 

Well, the Hattons 6-wheelers, IIRC, are a scale 32', so you could convert that to a 4-wheeler!

 

 

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Well, the Hattons 6-wheelers, IIRC, are a scale 32', so you could convert that to a 4-wheeler! 

 

... and are designed so as to make that conversion straightforward.