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'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement


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10 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Agree but many railwaymen used the vernacular word vack-um although that was also probably also a consequence of Regional accentsl as it definitely wasn't universal even on the WR.

 

The term 'loose coupled' applied to any unfitted freight train or part thereof so properly applied to the unfitted part of a train with a fitted head when used in the correct context.  The term 'fly shunting' (instead of loose shunting) was used in some early Rule Books, for example it is used in that context in my 1877 GWR/LNWR Joint Rule Book.  But by 1904, if not earlier, it had been replaced by the terms 'Loose Shunting' and 'Double Shunting' in the RCH standard Rules (Rule 113) - the earliest Rule Book I have which confirms that is my 1904 GWR Rule Book.  

 

Fly shunting was not separately identified in the Rule Book until 1972 when it was transferred from the General Appendix to the Rule Book but it had been defined in the General Appendix since at least February 1911 - that being the earliset dated reference I can find in GWR publications.   In some cases it seems the pre-1904 understanding might well have passed down to later generations but from the early 20th century Fly Shunting had been very clearly defined together with a warning about its dangers and the requirement for it only to be undertaken by experienced Shunters.  You'd need to be well out of date on your shunting Rules and Regulations to be calling loose (or double) shunting  fly shunting - probably because such people had never been involved in fly shunting.  

 

However there might be an older derivation as there was a very early GWR everyday term used by some people to describe their local freight trip as 'the fly'.  Oddly although it had long been in the Rules the term double shunting was, in my experience, invariably never used in everyday railway conversation.

 

I would be amazed if it didn't.  Fly shunting is difficult enough as everything needs to be very carefully timed to do it right.  And that means it is really impossible over points worked by a signal box because the Signalman can't see the correct moment to change the points and handsignalling him to do so would cost time that wasn't available

 

It makes perfect sense that a facing point, hand operated and with no facing point lock, is not likely to be on a running line, especially on a fairly busy 4 track line. Such things escaped the 15 year old trainspotter who saw it happen but has learned a bit since. It was mighty exciting seeing a gunpowder van heading for the end of the dock with a bloke jumping up and down with all his weight on the handbrake lever!

 

I did wonder whether that type of shunting with a loaded gunpowder van was covered by any rules.

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12 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

It makes perfect sense that a facing point, hand operated and with no facing point lock, is not likely to be on a running line, especially on a fairly busy 4 track line. Such things escaped the 15 year old trainspotter who saw it happen but has learned a bit since. It was mighty exciting seeing a gunpowder van heading for the end of the dock with a bloke jumping up and down with all his weight on the handbrake lever!

 

I did wonder whether that type of shunting with a loaded gunpowder van was covered by any rules.

RCH Rule 240, footnote  'Loose shunting of vehicles containing explosives is strictly prohibited.'  This  became part of clause b of Rule 110 in the BR 1950 Rule Book.

 

And fly shunting was a form of loose shunting because the wagon was not attached to a loco while moving (for part of the time)

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13 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Reminds me of a Yorkshire man I knew who used to talk of 'Arrow ont'Ill.  Nobody knew where he meant!

Did he mean 30919? That was/is certainly ont'Ill.

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On 01/05/2021 at 15:29, The Johnster said:

We're drifting a bit, even by my standards...

 

Railway vernacular, both professional and enthusiast, would be a pretty comprehensive subject in it's own right.  I learned 'vackum' both on the job and on the Guard's Training Course.  The instructor, I've forgotten his name now, was a Yorkshireman who insisted that 'vackum' was the correct way to enunciate this particular word, but as I say I'd already had it drummed into me by local railwaymen.  Only scientists, I was told, said 'vacyewum', and they were the b*ggers responsible for the atom bomb...

 

Our Yorkshire instructor had a rather lovely habit of describing ground signals, which we knew as 'dummies', as 'dollies' (actually quite reasonable as signals were on dolls).  I recall a yarn of his about a driver who'd 'it a dolly over at Wath wi' an electric'.  Trouble at t'mill, it's grim oop north...

I started volunteering as a 9 year old on the SVR at the back end of the 80s - they were dollies to us too

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In the United States they used a method called pole shunting.  Either side of the end sill of a wagon or loco they had a poling pocket.  A pole around 20 foot in length was positioned between the pocket on the wagon being shunted and the pocket on a wagon or loco on an adjacent track.  The loco or moving wagon would then shunt the wagon to be moved on the opposite track.   I believe the practice was eventually outlawed but it did last a long time.

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34 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

In the United States they used a method called pole shunting.  Either side of the end sill of a wagon or loco they had a poling pocket.  A pole around 20 foot in length was positioned between the pocket on the wagon being shunted and the pocket on a wagon or loco on an adjacent track.  The loco or moving wagon would then shunt the wagon to be moved on the opposite track.   I believe the practice was eventually outlawed but it did last a long time.

 

Not only in the US - though I don't think in the North East the wagons had poling pockets. See photo here.

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There were also various stunts of dubious legality with ropes and cables, I mean aside from using capstans and winches.  And of course there was gravity shunting, even with passenger stock at Wellington (Salop).  
 

Train from Much Wenlock arrives in down bay, passengers detrain and station work completed, train is set back on to kickback siding on incline. Guard applies handbrake in van, loco uncouples and stands aside out of the way.  Guard then releases the vacuum brakes by pulling the isolating cord, marked by a white painted star on the solebar.  Once he has the road, he releases the handbrake and the coaches drop back into the bay powered by Newton’s First Law, the handbrake is re-applied, and the loco is called in to the bay to couple on at the other end.  Vacuum is connected, brake continuity test performed, tail lamp placed on rear, passengers allowed to board, and we’re right away Much Wenlock!

 

I believe a model of this was featured in MRJ many years ago, with the gravity movement replicated at realistic speed using a flywheel geared to one of the coach axles.  

Edited by The Johnster
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42 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Not only in the US

The Midland Railway branch terminus at Barnoldswick was authorised to use "chain shunting" on adjacent tracks, similar concept and no pole pockets required.

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Pretty sure that "chain shunting" was used to shunt the mill siding at Ashburton — but this may have been unofficial. I've seen a video of chain shunting being used on an 'O' gauge layout, though I can't remember which one.

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15 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

this may have been unofficial

The busy branch was 1 engine in steam and the first train - passenger and/or mixed - would come along with 2 locos. One would be "locked" in the goods yard to shunt the incoming and outgoing wagons for as long as was necessary whilst the other took the outward passenger, returning later to unlock the yard. The chain shunting was written into the local rules in use up to and after WW2 (I've read in someone's memories that worked there at the time) and probably enabled them to get rid of the loco that was based there full time up until WW1.

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3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

There were also various stunts of dubious legality with ropes and cables, I mean aside from using capstans and winches.  And of course there was gravity shunting, even with passenger stock at Wellington (Salop).  
 

Train from Much Wenlock arrives in down bay, passengers detrain and station work completed, train is set back on to kickback siding on incline. Guard applies handbrake in van, loco uncouples and stands aside out of the way.  Guard then releases the vacuum brakes by pulling the isolating cord, marked by a white painted star on the solebar.  Once he has the road, he releases the handbrake and the coaches drop back into the bay powered by Newton’s First Law, the handbrake is re-applied, and the loco is called in to the bay to couple on at the other end.  Vacuum is connected, brake continuity test performed, tail lamp placed on rear, passengers allowed to board, and we’re right away Much Wenlock!

 

I believe a model of this was featured in MRJ many years ago, with the gravity movement replicated at realistic speed using a flywheel geared to one of the coach axles.  

I believe there was a similar arrangement at Holywell.

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4 hours ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

Pretty sure that "chain shunting" was used to shunt the mill siding at Ashburton — but this may have been unofficial. I've seen a video of chain shunting being used on an 'O' gauge layout, though I can't remember which one.

I've done it on a large O gauge layout.  Surprising how many obstacles there can be in the form of signal posts, yard lamps, telegraph poles, location cabinets etc.

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On 01/05/2021 at 12:29, The Stationmaster said:

However there might be an older derivation as there was a very early GWR everyday term used by some people to describe their local freight trip as 'the fly'.  

 

From canal usage possibly? A fly-boat, by c.1800 terms anyway IIRC, being one that worked without stopping (overnight), and some ran to timetables. 

 

The coaches continue to impress, very well done to all at Hattons :)

Edited by Schooner
And to all who contributed their knowledge so generously, of course, without whom the end result would be poorer
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12 minutes ago, Schooner said:

 

 

 

The coaches continue to impress, very well done to all at Hattons :)

Agreed.

I have one minor grumble, the tension locks look a bit droopy & loose (not unsual, unfortunately!).

Noticeable while Sam was running them was they bobbed up and down as the tension varied.

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Well .... I'm sold. They do look very good. I will say this: Had I not known that they were generic, I would have accepted them as pukka and would have been none the wiser. Well done Hatton's for taking on board the very many comments expressed here on RMWeb and coming up with what could possibly be the defintive generic coach.

 

Now, where do I sign up .....................

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

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15 hours ago, Free At Last said:

Sam's Trains has a look at some of the decorated coaches...

 

 


Damn cunning move by these Hattons chappies to get it on Sams Trains . Huge exposure . And it worked! I’ve known about these coaches since introduction but only paid rudimentary interest . Sams videos of the painted pre production models now has me seriously interested .  I had half a liking for the GWR ones ,really don’t need them , but they look really good in this video, so seriously considering it . The real surprise to me was the LMS versions which look superb . I’m wondering if a rake of these  will look good behind the forthcoming Rails Precedent that I have on order in LMS Crimson . I think I’ll hold off for moment though until see haulage capacity of the loco and free running capabilities of these coaches . The only downside I could see on video was that some coaches weren’t particularly free running , although as Sam pointed out these were pre production models and it might be different on the production run . 

Edited by Legend
correct grammar
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Sam's form of presentation grates because I find it verbose and lugubrious. "Cut to the chase!" I tell the screen. But his closeups are very revealing and in this case it all looks astonishingly good. Value for money appears to be generous. 

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I was interested that they had a 'Smoking' sign in one window of a GWR coach.  I will not be picky and ask if they have changed the colour of the seats.  That sort of detail is amazing, and would make what I am building look a little poor.  However, I am waiting for the LNWR coaches as I need through coaches and I am sure they will certainly look the part.

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