'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Agreed, but it does seem a little bizarre that Hornby are asking fifty quid more for an old-tooling Light Pacific than for the new MN which has a much more sophisticated specification.

 

John

i wonder whether Hornby have changed the way things are done, resulting in lower costs but older items still need to recoup their higher initial outlay?

It's noticeable that Hornby are now generally cheaper than Bachmann for most things, it used to be the reverse.

Edited May 5, 2021 by melmerby

[Dunsignalling]

8 minutes ago, melmerby said:

i wonder whether Hornby have changed the way things are done, resulting in lower costs but older items still need to recoup their higher initial outlay?

It's noticeable that Hornby are now generally cheaper than Bachmann for most things, it used to be the reverse.

Given the number of WC/BB models Hornby have made in the twenty years since the first was introduced, I'd think it highly doubtful (and very poor business practice) if the tooling costs weren't recouped at least fifteen years ago! 

 

AIUI, the current business model is designed to generate a profit from first runs. 

 

John

[Butler Henderson]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

It's noticeable that Hornby are now generally cheaper than Bachmann for most things, it used to be the reverse.

Maybe if they used materials fit for purpose rather than stupidly cheap brittle plastic for too many fine details then costs would be more comparable.  

[melmerby]

8 minutes ago, Butler Henderson said:

Maybe if they used materials fit for purpose rather than stupidly cheap brittle plastic for too many fine details then costs would be more comparable.  

Not found that.

Bachmann stuff also falls apart at first touch

[Michael Hodgson]

15 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

AIUI, the current business model is designed to generate a profit from first runs. 

 

Indeed, but reruns ought to be much more profitable as the difficult part of the work has already been done.

Modifications may of course be necessary or desirable as particular materials may not be available at similar prices or experience with particular issues might be worth addressing for a rerun. 

[GWR-fan]

Do not assume that reruns of a model are not retools or partial retools.  Several years ago when Hornby moved to new manufacturers when Sanda Kan shut down it was found that the old tooling was generally not compatible with the diecast machinery in use at the new facilities.  Retools were required to make the tooling compatible.

[Dunsignalling]

19 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Indeed, but reruns ought to be much more profitable as the difficult part of the work has already been done.

Modifications may of course be necessary or desirable as particular materials may not be available at similar prices or experience with particular issues might be worth addressing for a rerun. 

Yes, but the cost of such modifications will normally be relatively small in relation to the original tooling suite (unless that had an awful lot wrong with it).

 

So long as the initial releases recovered their costs, the input from that paid-for tooling increases the margin obtainable from subsequent runs. The expense of any minor modifications should therefore be recoverable with little effect on the retail price. 

 

Beyond that, though, there is the opportunity to set prices at what the maker considers the market will stand for specific models. I suspect that to be the rationale behind the RRP of Hornby's "Winston Churchill" (the tooling for which appears to date from the post-Sanda Kan factory switch) being significantly higher than that of the superior air-smoothed MN's produced from much newer tooling. A jump from £185 for last year's "Bideford" to £215 for this one seems to further support that theory.

 

John

Edited May 7, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Ravenser]

On 05/05/2021 at 15:44, Dunsignalling said:

The conundrum for Hatton's in doing some of these unliveried would be what set of roof and underframe details to use. I can't see it being viable to offer the full selection as per the finished coaches.

 

In any case, the painted ones are so keenly priced that I doubt there'd be a significant cash saving. The only real advantage would therefore be reducing the preparatory work required before applying ones own paint.

 

I think the only practicable solution will be to buy whatever livery comes with the specification you want, and go from there.

 

John  

 

I suspect the market would not be for actual undecorated models - but a generic teak finiosh without lettering, which could be lettered for the light railway of youir dreams. A lot of light railways do seem to have run varnished teak coaches - although by their latter days the varnished part of the description might have been questionable 

 

[GWR-fan]

The market is simply not there for liveried but unlettered coaches,  let alone undecorated cars.  The percentage of those amongst us who want to and actually do reletter or renumber models is very small.  The aftermarket suppliers take care of them.   Many manufacturers have supplied un-numbered or partially numbered locomotives and coaches and generally the model is left as the manufacturer supplied it.  Often I see Hornby and Heljan locomotives released many years ago still with a partial class classification but no cab number suffix.  In general,  people have little interest in finishing off the model and the manufacturer is well aware of that.  Years ago Hornby supplied additional coach number decals with many items released.  To this day people buying these old coaches still find the original decal sheet in the packaging.  I highly doubt that Hattons would release an incompleted model as in reality it would sell at the same price as a full liveried model.  Do not expect it to be less expensive.  Look to the latest release of the "OO" class 25 "Ethel" from one manufacturer.  While it does not have a motor it still costs the same as the motorised version.   Undecorated or incomplete models usually remain on the wharehouse shelving as there is such little demand for them.

[Edwardian]

A good deal of the attraction of a generic pre-Grouping coach, I should have thought, is that purchasers are spared the time and trouble of building and, most importantly, perhaps, of painting and lining, a kit. That suggests to me that the market for undecorated examples, which would not necessarily be significantly cheaper than decorated ones, would be modest.  Those who want a different paint job can, presumably, repaint a decorated example.  Those who like the colour but who want to change the lettering etc, presumably can get to work with T cut and a cotton bud. 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, GWR-fan said:

The market is simply not there for liveried but unlettered coaches,  let alone undecorated cars.  

 

This remains an opinion only, unless it is actually put to the test.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

17 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

This remains an opinion only, unless it is actually put to the test.

 

Yes, I've pondered over whether, for this particular product type, there would be a high demand for undecorated examples (unless much cheaper than I suspect they'd need to be sold for), but I did raise an eyebrow at that emphatic statement, as I tend to with all such assertions. 

 

 

[PaulRhB]

2 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

The market is simply not there for liveried but unlettered coaches,

Peco have been selling plain liveried 4 wheel and bogie coaches in their rtr 009 range for the last 4 years or so . . .

 

To be honest with most of these the crest and lettering branding would be fairly easy to replace with your own except maybe on the teak ones as it’s larger. 

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

unless much cheaper than I suspect they'd need to be sold for)

There lies the problem for those who expect the discounts, the printing is relatively fast with pads so doesn’t add much cost to production. Do you provide it without the details fitted to ease the modeller masking up to paint and then have to check and pack them too negating the assembly saving?
 

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

This remains an opinion only, unless it is actually put to the test.

 

It's been tried though. It works in O Gauge but not in 00.

 

Heljan used to sell unnumbered diesels. Or not sell as nobody bought them. They all ended up in the bargain bins whilst the numbered ones sold.

 

The shop that had all those models they couldn't get rid off? Hattons. So they've got experience of unnumbered models.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/21554/heljan_4742_class_47_diesel_in_br_blue_with_large_logo_unnumbered_/stockdetail.aspx

 

 

Jason

[HonestTom]

I guess the point of comparison would be the unpainted Dapol wagons. I don't know how well they sold, but they seem to be being phased out (which is annoying, I found them a cheap way to build up my fleet and practice my painting).

 

Purely speculation here, but one alternative possibility might be a generic livery, i.e. a plain livery not identified with any particular company. Say, unlined brown, red or black, with class markings on the doors and numbers but no company crests or anything. The sort of thing that could be a light railway, industrial line or freelance main line.

[Oldddudders]

Those who aspire to redecorate a model of this sort, which needs some skill, probably aren't at all fussed about overpainting or removing existing lettering. It seems a shame to obliterate such quality work, and most of us would not expect our finished product to be in the same league as the original. The heavy-weatherers might not be so bothered. 

[The Johnster]

As I'm intending to have a set of these as a 1950s miner's workmen's, I will be one of the 'heavy weatherers'; the train will be a nod to the Glyncorrwg workmen's, which in all photos was filthy and it is difficult to see if the livery is GW plain brown or BR crimson.  Caerphilly Works turned out some of these coaches in crimson according to ChrisF, whose erudition in such matters I respect highly.  So, I will probably be buying my 4 wheelers in the plainest livery available, as the rendition of the fully lined out GWR is superb and I cannot bring myself to paint over it, never mind obliterate the overpaint with heavy weathering.  I would prefer the option of unpainted versions, but as has been said the roof profile is critical and I do not expect Hatton's to provide this option, which would no doubt cost them money, for my benefit!

[Ravenser]

11 hours ago, HonestTom said:

I guess the point of comparison would be the unpainted Dapol wagons. I don't know how well they sold, but they seem to be being phased out (which is annoying, I found them a cheap way to build up my fleet and practice my painting).

 

Purely speculation here, but one alternative possibility might be a generic livery, i.e. a plain livery not identified with any particular company. Say, unlined brown, red or black, with class markings on the doors and numbers but no company crests or anything. The sort of thing that could be a light railway, industrial line or freelance main line.

 

As inmdicated earlier, the most likely generic livery is unbranded varnished teak. Teak is notoriously difficult to do yourself, so there might well be a modest market among the builders of fictional light railways

 

The North London Railway seems to have sold off coaches to a num,ber of light railways - and the NLR livery was varnished teak 

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, Ravenser said:

Teak is notoriously difficult to do yourself, so there might well be a modest market among the builders of fictional light railways

Done in spades and with the Hornby carriages to boot:

 

[Nile]

Unbranded teak coaches would be most welcome considering how good the teak finish looks on these.

[Jenny Emily]

I have the Genesis coaches livery samples here for filming for a video coming out probably on Friday on Youtube. 
 

very impressed with these. They are robust, run well, lit versions have no light bleed and the detail and livery application are sublime. 
 

sleeper hit for me are the LMS versions. Not on my radar until I saw them here. Absolutely amazing in the flesh. 
 

[Jenny Emily]

A couple more images showing the LMS and departmental ones. 

[Rowsley17D]

Seeing that LMS 4-wheeler makes me wish I could go for full "Midland" livery for my LMS bogies.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Rowsley17D

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Rowsley17D said:

Seeing that LMS 6-wheeler makes me wish I could go for full "Midland" livery for my LMS bogies.

 

Raises the bar, doesn't it?