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'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement


Hattons Dave
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36 minutes ago, Legend said:

 I'll bet there are a lot of people in a similar position , 

Absolutely, I've got Lucknow on order, so I've ordered 5 LNWR Genesis to be going on with. All my other coaching stock is E numbered crimson and cream (whether Gresley, Thompson or Mk1), so I needed something....

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31 minutes ago, Helmdon said:

Absolutely, I've got Lucknow on order, so I've ordered 5 LNWR Genesis to be going on with. All my other coaching stock is E numbered crimson and cream (whether Gresley, Thompson or Mk1), so I needed something....

 

How about as an alternative to run with the coaches a suitable Webb Coal Tank.

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5 minutes ago, johnd said:

 

How about as an alternative to run with the coaches a suitable Webb Coal Tank.

I'm planning to get some for that very purpose. Hornby's LNWR livery looks rather off to me.

 

That being said, I have wagons that could run with it, so this is definitely an "I want it" rather than an "I need it" purchase.

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I inadvertently started off this debate so I will say my approach.  I am building a Cambrian layout set in 1895, and as it has taken so long I have found the correct timetable so will run to a sequence using the timetable.  (There could be two hours between trains so a sequence is what works.)  I have also, for various reasons acquired locos an coaches to run this, but up to now I only have 3 Cambrian ones that fit the bill.  I am not sure how many I will need, but at the last look in the race between me and a snail the snail was miles ahead.  I also need to build through coaches, for the GWR, MS&LR, and LNWR.  Period locos and goods stock is also necessary.  So, when I do a running session, which is hampered by the fact I need to actually power the point motors, I can run my timetable with non period stock.  The theory is that I shall gradually replace them with the correct period and company.  (My youngest son told me the other day that I really ought to get on with the scenery, "The wrong stock in the right scenery is better than the wrong stock in the wrong scenery.")

 

So the Hattons coaches will probably save me about four, perhaps only two years work but they are a long way down the line.  Buying them means I will have enough to run the timetable in its entirety.  I also have a coal tank for the same reason.

 

I have to say that I am finally retired and like other people in my position I wonder how I had time to go to work, and modelling time seems even more scarce.

 

Will these coaches move people towards pre-grouping?  Thought?  As younger people join the hobby, who have never seen a steam railway network, the draw of the 50s and 60s will diminish, except if you want to run steam that is where most of the r-t-r is, but there will be no emotional attachment to those years so a good set of r-t-r in the pre-groupng era can only be good?

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I think that, given enough trade support, a much more even spread of interest across the various eras will emerge.

 

However, I think the 1950s/60s period is likely to remain very popular long after we who were around then, no longer are. Why? Not simply the allure of readily available r-t-r steam locos (including quite a few survivors from the pre-group era) but also being able to run them alongside diesels. 

 

Across most of the country, the last decade of steam included probably the broadest mixture of potential modelling subjects in concurrent use of any period in UK railway history; ranging from brand new diesel and electric stock to fairly ancient branch line locos hauling distinctly middle-aged coaches.

 

Added to which, the infrastructure in many locations had changed little from Victorian times, so it's quite easy to backdate layouts to earlier periods if it takes ones fancy, just by changing the stock and any road vehicles.

 

John

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4 hours ago, ChrisN said:

 

Will these coaches move people towards pre-grouping?  Thought?  As younger people join the hobby, who have never seen a steam railway network, the draw of the 50s and 60s will diminish, except if you want to run steam that is where most of the r-t-r is, but there will be no emotional attachment to those years so a good set of r-t-r in the pre-groupng era can only be good?

 

Chicken and egg sort of situation, what the market thinks is popular Vs what is popular because it's already readily available.

 

Certainly when I rejoined the hobby it would have been waaaay easier for me to model the 50s RTR instead of the 40s, but that's where my interest is. And fortunately there has been an influx of more appropriate models for that era in the past few years.

 

My view is, "build it and they will come" , if the RTR stock is there, people will model it!

 

 

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6 hours ago, johnd said:

 

How about as an alternative to run with the coaches a suitable Webb Coal Tank.

don't start - Lucknow (and the Titfield Thunderbolt) are the two exceptions to my single minded pursuit of the GCLE... In 10 years of collecting for this project.

Edited by Helmdon
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On 10/06/2021 at 18:09, Helmdon said:

don't start - Lucknow (and the Titfield Thunderbolt) are the two exceptions to my single minded pursuit of the GCLE... In 10 years of collecting for this project.

 

Well, at least they're both from the same railway company; sort of

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Did a searh and couldn’t find an answer and no time to slog through 127 pages of posts in this topic so here goes. Was there a general time period when 4 and 6 wheel coaches were retired? I am mostly interested in the SR ones to possibly run with my Wainwright 4-4-0 when it arrives. From what I could find on the internet it appears many 4 wheel coaches were moved to the Isle of Wight around 1930 and retired over the coming decade. However what about 6 wheelers? Were they like on the GWR, retired to maintenance use over the 1930s, or did some have the middle wheel removed and boggies added on each end? Or did they just have a big bonfire? Unfortunately not much on the internet about the SR. Thanks 

Edited by Cofga
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32 minutes ago, Cofga said:

Did a searh and couldn’t find an answer and no time to slog through 127 pages of posts in this topic so here goes. Was there a general time period when 4 and 6 wheel coaches were retired? I am mostly interested in the SR ones to possibly run with my Wainwright 4-4-0 when it arrives. From what I could find on the internet it appears many 4 wheel coaches were moved to the Isle of Wight around 1930 and retired over the coming decade. However what about 6 wheelers? Were they like on the GWR, retired to maintenance use over the 1930s, or did some have the middle wheel removed and boggies added on each end? Or did they just have a big bonfire? Unfortunately not much on the internet about the SR? Thanks 

 

One word - Electrification!

 

While some 4 / 6 wheelers did migrate to the IOW an awful lot had their underframe removed and were then doubled (or sometimes trebled up on a new underframe to make EMU vehicles.

 

See https://www.bloodandcustard.com/LSWR-3carmotorunits.html#ESUFourteenZeroOne

 

 

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2 hours ago, Cofga said:

Did a searh and couldn’t find an answer and no time to slog through 127 pages of posts in this topic so here goes. Was there a general time period when 4 and 6 wheel coaches were retired? 

 

As a general rule of thumb, they survived longest on the LNER - especially in East Anglia. They were generally in rapid decline on the GWR and the LMS constituents by the Great War, though on the LMS some survivors could be seen even in express trains on the Midland Division in the early 1920s, usually as strengtheners. Some actual numbers were posted upthread somewhere, so it will be worth trawling back through if you really want to know. Carriages of this type were built in the 1880s/90s at a time when the capital value of a passenger carriage was written down to nil after a bit over 20 years, so it could legitimately be replaced by a new carriage paid for out of revenue (i.e. not increasing the company's capitalisation). Of course many such carriages continued in service for some years more as duplicate stock. 

 

On withdrawal, they were usually broken up. Quite how the material was usually disposed of - how much recycling went on - would be interesting to know. Only a small fraction were adapted as service stock - mess and tool vans etc. - or sold off for housing, sports pavilions, etc. Those tend to be the ones that have survived to be restored - or to sit in some forlorn queue awaiting restoration one day.

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I assume Hattons can go the further mile on detail as they do not sell to dealers often if at all so they keep the money each model earns where as Hornby sell all over the world to shops etc and profits are split .So  maybe 25-30 per cent extra detailing money is allowed..Who knows .....?

Edited by friscopete
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17 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

As a general rule of thumb, they survived longest on the LNER - especially in East Anglia. They were generally in rapid decline on the GWR and the LMS constituents by the Great War, though on the LMS some survivors could be seen even in express trains on the Midland Division in the early 1920s, usually as strengtheners. Some actual numbers were posted upthread somewhere, so it will be worth trawling back through if you really want to know. Carriages of this type were built in the 1880s/90s at a time when the capital value of a passenger carriage was written down to nil after a bit over 20 years, so it could legitimately be replaced by a new carriage paid for out of revenue (i.e. not increasing the company's capitalisation). Of course many such carriages continued in service for some years more as duplicate stock. 

 

On withdrawal, they were usually broken up. Quite how the material was usually disposed of - how much recycling went on - would be interesting to know. Only a small fraction were adapted as service stock - mess and tool vans etc. - or sold off for housing, sports pavilions, etc. Those tend to be the ones that have survived to be restored - or to sit in some forlorn queue awaiting restoration one day.

The six wheel coaches lasted even longer in Ireland. There is even pictures of a rake of six wheelers hauled by diesel locomotives.

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2 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

The six wheel coaches lasted even longer in Ireland. 

 

I'm afraid the rate of survival of 6-wheelers post Great War is a measure of the poverty of the railway company.

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34 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm afraid the rate of survival of 6-wheelers post Great War is a measure of the poverty of the railway company.

 Which explains the survival rate on the ex-GE lines which never made much money.   Of course, it is interesting to note that the SR was happy to reuse former six wheel stock to form the basis of the new electric stock as it began the process of electrification.

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9 hours ago, Bishdurham said:

 Which explains the survival rate on the ex-GE lines which never made much money.   Of course, it is interesting to note that the SR was happy to reuse former six wheel stock to form the basis of the new electric stock as it began the process of electrification.

Though only the bodywork. That was due to the high quality, long-lasting timber that was used to build the original vehicles. Construction was such that dismantling was simply the reverse of it and, in many cases, compartments (or groups thereof) formed what we would today call modules. The rebuilding process was therefore straightforward/quick/economical, with little risk of damage/wastage.

 

Such timber was never cheap, and later 6-wheelers were little over half-way through the service life anticipated when they were new. They were mechanically obsolete, not worn-out overall, and the bodywork of many had decades of life left in it. Combining sections from older coaches onto longer underframes, for steam haulage, was nothing new; the LNWR started doing so as early as the 1890s, IIRC, and I don't think the SR was even the first to produce an electric unit that way.

 

Also, of course, the SR were only extending the LSWR system of electrification, both that company and the LBSCR having commenced installing such infrastructure some years earlier.

 

John

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On 10/06/2021 at 09:05, Edwardian said:

And, BTW, this release fully justifies the policy of retailer commissions and shows how they are enriching our hobby.     

 

Indeed. Does anyone really think we would have seen the Hornby coaches now if the Hattons ones had not generated so much interest? Do we think Hornby would have updated their Terrier (and its a nice model - I have 2) without the Rails/Dapol one being announced?

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1 hour ago, JohnR said:

 

Indeed. Does anyone really think we would have seen the Hornby coaches now if the Hattons ones had not generated so much interest? Do we think Hornby would have updated their Terrier (and its a nice model - I have 2) without the Rails/Dapol one being announced?

 

But did we need to see them?  Of course they were all under development by Hornby prior to Rails and Hattons announcements 

 

I think the Hattons genesis coaches will be a step up on the Hornby ones . Just look at the intricate liveries, the end detail , no light bleed on illuminated ones and compare them to Hornby , good enough coaches , but I feel sure Hattons will outclass them .  

Edited by Legend
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55 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

Indeed. Does anyone really think we would have seen the Hornby coaches now if the Hattons ones had not generated so much interest? Do we think Hornby would have updated their Terrier (and its a nice model - I have 2) without the Rails/Dapol one being announced?

Yes, I do. This is speculation, of course, but it does fit what we saw. I think (as I have said before, sorry for the repetition) that Hornby planned to produce Stroudley coaches, which is what they represent. After all, Dapol had announced Stroudleys in 0 scale, to match the 0 scale Terrier and that may have triggered the 00 version. When Hatton’s announced the generic range, Hornby decided it would be a good idea to offer its Stroudleys in other liveries.

 

I am on less sure ground with the Terriers but I believe that Hornby had the research done. I think Hornby has a stack of models researched and ready to tool up but which await the right moment to launch them on the market. I think an updated Terrier was likely at some stage but the announcement of the Rails/Dapol Terrier triggered the production.

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13 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

The last four wheelers went in the 1950s. The Caledonian Balerno stock even got BR numbering and some even got a repaint into BR livery.

 

Not quite like the Hattons model though.

 

http://www.caleycoaches.co.uk/assets/pdfs/balernoPn.pdf

 

http://www.caleycoaches.co.uk/balerno.php

 

 

Jason

 

Fascinating - I've just doubled checked, and the Hattons BR Crimson livery examples are numbered as per the Balerno coaches. 

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1 hour ago, JohnR said:

 

Indeed. Does anyone really think we would have seen the Hornby coaches now if the Hattons ones had not generated so much interest? Do we think Hornby would have updated their Terrier (and its a nice model - I have 2) without the Rails/Dapol one being announced?

Both were clearly under development by Hornby prior to the competing announcements; they couldn't have been brought to market from a "standing start" in the time they took to emerge. AIUI, though, the Terrier was intended to carry the Oxford Rail brand, and only became "Hornby" after Rails went public. It would be interesting to know if the same applied to the coaches.

 

The problem was that Hornby decided it was vital to beat the newbies into the shops and neither their Terrier or the coaches are as good as they might have been without the haste. It is arguable that the Rails Terrier suffers in the same way.

 

Aside from wanting to strangle potential competitors at birth, Hornby had no need (IMHO) to rush things. Given the much smaller quantities that models are now made in, I reckon the demand from that cohort of users/collectors who are "Hornby Only" would have been more than sufficient to ensure selling out. 

 

It is noticeable that Hatton's resisted the temptation to follow suit with their Genesis coaches, and I'm eagerly anticipating reaping the benefit of their patience. 

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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Its a great pity that Hornby did not follow through with an accurate version of the Stroudley 4 wheeled coaches using correct grab handles and without making any silly mistakes with buffers and footboards. Then once these had sold in probably three liveries, went on to modify the format to represent other companies stock. Obviously allowing for the established length of coach and style of panelling, the separately moulded end detailing for the brake coach was the main thing that was easy to vary with optional alternatives and underframe brake gear etc could also have been easily varied. They could also have produced the composite coach rather than the totally incorrect length luggage brake, although perhaps that might have come later if a shorter chassis was viable for several different vehicles ?

All the best

Ray

Edited by wainwright1
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