'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[Edwardian]

I suggest that Ratio grounded body kit should be banned from any layout set before c.1930. It's too modern a design to be found grounded much before then. Ditto the Hattons bodies. Of course, I daresay there may be exceptions, but I'd look for one 30-40 years old at the time it was grounded.  So, a coach style typical of the 1890s is not likely to turn up as an engineman's bothy or a south coast beach hut until at least 1930.  

[Edwardian]

18 hours ago, it's-er said:

Goodness, Edwardian, wonderful photos!  Can you give us years when these photos were taken, please?

 

I'm particularly taken by the three axle coach sitting in Edinburgh Waverley - third photo down - taken some time in the 1920s or 30s, I'd guess. You don't get any clues from the buildings (Forsyth's department store at left, North British Hotel, now Balmoral, to right) because they are still there today!

 

John S

 

Just a random internet trawl to test how relatively easy it is to find examples of such coaches with long lives.

 

The Scotsman van I believe may be a 30' NBR design, allocated to newspaper traffic, a number of which were leased to The Scotsman. I knew a lady who had once worked for The Scotsman in London. She won them a year's advertising by a major Japanese motor manufacturer worth significant revenue to the paper, but had had to take a couple of their executives to lunch to secure the deal. Despite trying to do so as economically as was decent in the circumstances, after her expenses were submitted she received an anguished and perplexed call from The Scotsman's Accounts department in Edinburgh, "fifty poons! fifty poons for a lunch!" 

 

The two camping coaches were, as Wainwright guessed, ex-LCDR coaches at Amberley.

 

Below left we have two EKR coaches.  The EKR had a couple of ex-LCDR 6W 3-compartment brake thirds, but this looks more like the ex-LSWR 6W 3-compartment brake third the EKR had 1919-1948, together with an ex-NLR 4W brake.

 

The faded pair to the right are ex-LSWR coaches on the Shropshire & Montgomery (sold to the PD&SWJR in 1908, thence to the S&M in 1911), and given their state, I surmise we are somewhere towards their disposal in 1941.

 

Finally, the ex-GW coach, No W9993, is here seen at Solihull in 1952.  It was originally a broad gauge 6 wheeler of 1885, rebuilt as a SG 6-wheeler in 1892. Rebuilt as a 4 wheeler in 1922, the GW condemned it in 1931, but it was saved by induction into the 1934 camp coach programme!  It went to the Engineering Department at Oswestry in 1945. Waste not, want not. 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Edwardian said:

I suggest that Ratio grounded body kit should be banned from any layout set before c.1930. It's too modern a design to be found grounded much before then. Ditto the Hattons bodies. Of course, I daresay there may be exceptions, but I'd look for one 30-40 years old at the time it was grounded.  So, a coach style typical of the 1890s is not likely to turn up as an engineman's bothy or a south coast beach hut until at least 1930.  

 

A grounded flat-sided carriage body of 1850s/60s vintage would be a good exercise in plasticard carriage building, before moving on to those 1880s/90s carriages you really want.

[Invicta]

On 14/06/2021 at 22:08, Nick C said:

I believe there were a few rakes of 4/6 wheelers on the SR (mainland) that just scraped into the thirties on hop-pickers duties, excursions etc. The Bluebell have a couple of 6 wheelers with 1935 withdrawal dates.

 

The LCDR 4-wheelers sent over to the IOW mostly lasted until 36/37, with a couple of exceptions that lasted through the war in parcels use. 

 

One location where 4/6 wheelers just scraped into the 30's on the mainland was the Canterbury & Whitstable line, owing to the tight confines of Tyler Hill tunnel.

 

According to Brian Hart's book on the line "Shortly before the grouping, the SE&CR had managed to find sixteen LC&DR-pattern four-wheelers, most of which had been built at Longhedge around 1901...On entering service they were finished in SR green with yellow lining and company lettering. However the livery didn't stay bright for very long since the filthy environs of Tyler Hill tunnel soon dulled and dirtied the smart exteriors" and these would have remained on the line until the end of passenger services on 1st January 1931

 

Apparently they were modified with smaller wheels, reduced roof overhangs and removal of duckets on brake coaches to cope with the tunnel, and replaced a number of ex-SER coaches, described as being "of a type which had generally disappeared around 1907" 

 

[Edwardian]

25 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

A grounded flat-sided carriage body of 1850s/60s vintage would be a good exercise in plasticard carriage building, before moving on to those 1880s/90s carriages you really want.

 

Yes, I'm not even sure I want my test prints of 1870s coaches recycled as grounded bodies. I think for a backwater line in the mid-1900s, it's a little too soon for that to have happened. 

 

Around the turn of the century, the first LSWR 4-wheelers were going to the Isle of Wight; early 1870s coaches.

 

In the early 1900s the GER was still selling off late 1860s stock to second users, and probably grounding only those too far gone as platform shelters etc. In 1903 it converted a mid 1870s coach for the W&U. 

 

I reckon a line like the WNR would still be using 1870s coaches in the mid-1900s, albeit confined mainly to branch line, the odd strengthener, and, perhaps, excursion, duties.  By the late 1900s they might begin to be weeded out, with some perhaps sold to Light Railways, or moving into departmental use.  Only after these possibilities are exhausted are we likely to see any grounded bodies.    

 

So, I agree, grounded bodies on the WNR are likely to be those of the original 1850s and subsequent 1860s stock.  Thus, much as you suggest, some slab-side Joe Wrights seem called for.

[PhilJ W]

47 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

A grounded flat-sided carriage body of 1850s/60s vintage would be a good exercise in plasticard carriage building, before moving on to those 1880s/90s carriages you really want.

There's the forthcoming 'Sam's coach' from the Titfield Thunderbolt train from Rapido which represents an 1860's coach.

[Edwardian]

6 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

There's the forthcoming 'Sam's coach' from the Titfield Thunderbolt train from Rapido which represents an 1860's coach.

 

True, but given the price to pay for that ensemble, I'd rather just break out the microstrip!

 

 

[JohnR]

1 hour ago, Invicta said:

 

One location where 4/6 wheelers just scraped into the 30's on the mainland was the Canterbury & Whitstable line, owing to the tight confines of Tyler Hill tunnel.

 

 

 

38 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

There's the forthcoming 'Sam's coach' from the Titfield Thunderbolt train from Rapido which represents an 1860's coach.

 

Perhaps there were not men of sufficient faith in Canterbury.

[turbos]

5 hours ago, Edwardian said:

I suggest that Ratio grounded body kit should be banned from any layout set before c.1930. It's too modern a design to be found grounded much before then. Ditto the Hattons bodies. Of course, I daresay there may be exceptions, but I'd look for one 30-40 years old at the time it was grounded.  So, a coach style typical of the 1890s is not likely to turn up as an engineman's bothy or a south coast beach hut until at least 1930.  

I agree, images 5 and 6 in this link https://www.crassoc.org.uk/web/sites/default/files/Archive_Catalogue/CRA7_1_1_1 Carriages.pdf show an Aberdeen Railway composite complete with luggage rails and brakemans seat grounded and in use as a Bothy. 
 

Brian.

 

[ChrisN]

I have looked at the updates from Hattons but I cannot find the answer I am looking for.  It appears that the only set of coaches with oil lamps are the GWR ones.  Are there any more planned?

 

My reason is that the 5 compartment third could pass as a Cambrian coach if it is repainted but I model the year 1895 and at this time they would have had oil lamps.  The GWR livery is just to nice to paint over.

[THEDORSETBEAR]

On 06/07/2021 at 22:28, ChrisN said:

I have looked at the updates from Hattons but I cannot find the answer I am looking for.  It appears that the only set of coaches with oil lamps are the GWR ones.  Are there any more planned?

 

My reason is that the 5 compartment third could pass as a Cambrian coach if it is repainted but I model the year 1895 and at this time they would have had oil lamps.  The GWR livery is just to nice to paint over.

Have a look at the Hornby LBSCR version. It’s a bit shorter in height, but has the oil lamps.

[phil-b259]

9 minutes ago, THEDORSETBEAR said:

Have a look at the Hornby LBSCR version. It’s a bit shorter in height, but has the oil lamps.

But is air braked (rather than vacuum so missing lots of under frame gubbins) and looks like a Stroudley coach! The only ‘generic things about them are the door grab rails, some iffy dimensions length wise and decidedly weird step boards.

 

As has been stated before the Hattons offering is definitely better both in terms of generic-ness and detailing.

 

 

[it's-er]

I clearly haven't been following this thread lately, because I have just realised, Edwardian, that you replied on 16 June to my request of 15 June for more information about those photographs you posted on the previous page.  Thank you for all this information about years and locations.

 

That is a lovely snippet about The Scotsman newspaper!

 

John S

[magpac]

@Hattons Dave

 

I've been looking at ordering the GWR coaches, and was thinking of getting the 4 pack and then adding some others, and noticed an discrepancy in the page at: https://www.hattons.co.uk/492339/hattons_originals_h4_46pack_101_pack_of_4_coaches_4bt_4t_6c123_6bt_in_gwr_chocolate_and_cream/stockdetail.aspx 

 

That page says "Pack of 4 coaches (4BT, 4T, 6C123, 6BT) in GWR chocolate and cream" and "Coach numbers included in this pack are: 204, 75, 148, 358", the only number in that list that matches the individual coaches is 148, which is H4-6BT-10/BH4-6BT-101BL/6-wheel brake 3rd 148.

 

But clicking on the 4-Coach Pack at: https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=876 , brings up 

 

Which shows the numbers 4BT-205, 4T-358, 6BT-142 and 6C123-73.

 

Anyone know if the numbers on the page "204, 75, 148, 358" or the graphic "205, 73, 142 and 358" are correct? It means there are either 17 or 18 individually numbered GWR coaches.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by magpac
Tagging Dave in the post

[Jon Harbour]

Why not e-mail Hattons direct? I'm sure they will answer you promptly. 

[magpac]

9 minutes ago, Jon Harbour said:

Why not e-mail Hattons direct? I'm sure they will answer you promptly. 

 

Yes, that would make sense wouldn't it  .... and now done.

 

 

[Jon Harbour]

I've always found them to be very prompt and helpful in that respect. Particularly when you are on the other side of the world and it is awkward to try and call given the time differences!  

[Dragonfly]

I'm sure it's noted in a description or post somewhere that the packs contain different running numbers, so if you order a pack and some individuals, you won't have duplication.

Had the same thoughts myself a few weeks back.

(apologies if misunderstood the query. Pre-coffee browsing) 

[Dominion]

I asked them the same question about the LNER 4 packs a few weeks ago. They replied that the numbers in the 4 pack were different to on the individual coaches. Tom

[Legend]

On 16/06/2021 at 06:41, Edwardian said:

 

Just a random internet trawl to test how relatively easy it is to find examples of such coaches with long lives.

 

The Scotsman van I believe may be a 30' NBR design, allocated to newspaper traffic, a number of which were leased to The Scotsman. I knew a lady who had once worked for The Scotsman in London. She won them a year's advertising by a major Japanese motor manufacturer worth significant revenue to the paper, but had had to take a couple of their executives to lunch to secure the deal. Despite trying to do so as economically as was decent in the circumstances, after her expenses were submitted she received an anguished and perplexed call from The Scotsman's Accounts department in Edinburgh, "fifty poons! fifty poons for a lunch!" 

 

The two camping coaches were, as Wainwright guessed, ex-LCDR coaches at Amberley.

 

Below left we have two EKR coaches.  The EKR had a couple of ex-LCDR 6W 3-compartment brake thirds, but this looks more like the ex-LSWR 6W 3-compartment brake third the EKR had 1919-1948, together with an ex-NLR 4W brake.

 

The faded pair to the right are ex-LSWR coaches on the Shropshire & Montgomery (sold to the PD&SWJR in 1908, thence to the S&M in 1911), and given their state, I surmise we are somewhere towards their disposal in 1941.

 

Finally, the ex-GW coach, No W9993, is here seen at Solihull in 1952.  It was originally a broad gauge 6 wheeler of 1885, rebuilt as a SG 6-wheeler in 1892. Rebuilt as a 4 wheeler in 1922, the GW condemned it in 1931, but it was saved by induction into the 1934 camp coach programme!  It went to the Engineering Department at Oswestry in 1945. Waste not, want not. 

 

 

 

 

Thomas Middlemas refers to the Scotsman coach in his book "Mainly Scottish Steam "  it was used in the 1920s to transport the Scotsman , printed in Edinburgh to the good folks of Glasgow . I think he said it was bright red and stood out on trains  which were presumably teak by that time .

[magpac]

On 14/07/2021 at 14:21, magpac said:

@Hattons Dave

 

I've been looking at ordering the GWR coaches, and was thinking of getting the 4 pack and then adding some others, and noticed an discrepancy in the page at: https://www.hattons.co.uk/492339/hattons_originals_h4_46pack_101_pack_of_4_coaches_4bt_4t_6c123_6bt_in_gwr_chocolate_and_cream/stockdetail.aspx 

 

That page says "Pack of 4 coaches (4BT, 4T, 6C123, 6BT) in GWR chocolate and cream" and "Coach numbers included in this pack are: 204, 75, 148, 358", the only number in that list that matches the individual coaches is 148, which is H4-6BT-10/BH4-6BT-101BL/6-wheel brake 3rd 148.

 

But clicking on the 4-Coach Pack at: https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=876 , brings up 

 

Which shows the numbers 4BT-205, 4T-358, 6BT-142 and 6C123-73.

 

Anyone know if the numbers on the page "204, 75, 148, 358" or the graphic "205, 73, 142 and 358" are correct? It means there are either 17 or 18 individually numbered GWR coaches.

 

 

 

I heard back from Hattons, the running numbers in the Pack of 4 coaches do indeed match the graphic and the page has been updated with the correct numbers.

 

So there are18 carriages available: 3x4BT, 3x4T, 1x4C12, 1x4F, 3x6BT, 2x6T, 2x6C123, 1x6S, 1x6CL13 and the Full Brake.

 

 

[ChicagoNick]

Any info on the type of DCC chip needed for these coaches. I am getting the GWR ones, can I assume they would not be very bright and hopefully it can be adjusted down. When did coaches typically switch to gas lit?

[ChrisN]

13 hours ago, ChicagoNick said:

Any info on the type of DCC chip needed for these coaches. I am getting the GWR ones, can I assume they would not be very bright and hopefully it can be adjusted down. When did coaches typically switch to gas lit?

 

The question is, do you mean when did they start introducing gas lighting, or when did they phase out oil lamps?  Gas lighting was introduced on new builds in the early 1890s, but apparently there were still 500 coaches with oil lamps in the 1930s.

[ChicagoNick]

Thanks for that. My Hattons 4 and six wheelers can squeak in then.. Gonna historically shoehorn a Bachmann Earl to pull them, maybe that's too cheeky. which I think puts me at best 1936..  ... 

 

[melmerby]

39 minutes ago, ChicagoNick said:

Thanks for that. My Hattons 4 and six wheelers can squeak in then.. Gonna historically shoehorn a Bachmann Earl to pull them, maybe that's too cheeky. which I think puts me at best 1936..  ... 

 

You'd be better off with a 45XX tank, a bit more likely and 30 years earlier