'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[Legend]

38 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Unproven. In fact there is a counter-example: Hornby's Great Western 56 ft corridor clerestory carriages. For all their many and manifest defects, they're basically faithful to the prototype and have been steady sellers for 30 years or more - or at least one presumes so, since they keep being re-issued.

 

Yes but I bet most people run them as a generic "old time coach"  I know I've seen one YouTube channel where they were bought to run with NBR "Maude" because they are a similar vintage. I think they've also appeared from Hornby in Midland Crimson to run with their old compound , again demonstrating that while they were based on a specific GWR coach , they are mainly being used in a generic fashion.

 

I suppose Hattons could have selected a range from one particular railway company eg GNR then repainted them in several different schemes . In that way at least one company followers would have been 100% pleased . My point is though that I really doubt theres a market for specific GN, LNWR etc models, so in that case a generic design is probably the best that can be expected.

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

One thing no-one has considered so far is treating these as raw materials. Obviously, we won't know until we see the models, but will there be a market for replacement etched sides a la Comet models?

 

Personally, I fancy making a grounded carriage cottage out of one. Where's the option without chassis @Hattons Dave? ;-)

Or what could the chassis be used for once you've removed the body?

[PaulRhB]

As noted several times the market for one style is very limited and therefore not viable, that’s why Modelrail didn’t do the matching W&U coach for the J70. While a GWR version or a SR IoW one might have broken even it wouldn’t have sold the numbers these hopefully will and I very much doubt we’d have seen LNWR, L&Y & Metropolitan that I’ll buy a few of each. Fact is I’ll only buy a few in two of those liveries but 2-3 of sets in LNWR so that kinda supports the viability notes as even in LNWR I’m only buying the equivalent of a full mainline set of bogie coaches. 

[Legend]

44 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Unproven. In fact there is a counter-example: Hornby's Great Western 56 ft corridor clerestory carriages. For all their many and manifest defects, they're basically faithful to the prototype and have been steady sellers for 30 years or more - or at least one presumes so, since they keep being re-issued.

 

Yes but I bet most people run them as a generic "old time coach"  I know I've seen one YouTube channel where they were bought to run with NBR "Maude" because they are a similar vintage. I think they've also appeared from Hornby in Midland Crimson to run with their old compound , again demonstrating that while they were based on a specific GWR coach , they are mainly being used in a generic fashion.

 

I suppose Hattons could have selected a range from one particular railway company eg GNR then repainted them in several different schemes . In that way at least one company followers would have been 100% pleased . My point is though that I really doubt theres a market for specific GN, LNWR etc models, so in that case a generic design is probably the best that can be expected.

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That is an interesting carriage, whose origins I am struggling to identify. Round-cornered eves panels, windows round-cornered at the top, square cornered at the bottom, then GNR / LNER-style square-cornered beading on the waist and lower panels. Have the lower panels been replaced when the carriage was converted to a camping coach, along with some of the doors being sealed up?

 

1 hour ago, 31A said:

 

Ex MS&LR (GCR) I believe.  From the pictures and drawings in George Dow's "Great Central" (vol. 2) the MS&LR had coaches with square cornered lower panelling, and the round topped axle boxes point towards the GC as well.  Can't see whether the camping coach is 4 or 6 wheeled, but it looks quite similar to the MS&L 6 wheeled 5 compartment 3rds built 1879-1899 in the drawing on Appendix IX of the above book.

 

20 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

IIRC the early LNER camping coaches were ex GNR ECJS dating from the 1880's. They had lower, flatter roofs than later stock. A 'lower roof' variant might be worthy of consideration by Hattons as it could also be used as a basis for a celestory version.

 

After a bit of digging around, I think an MS&LR origin for this particular camping coach is correct. 

I don't understand why the word "clerestory" keeps cropping up - non-bogie clerestories were very rare - a few Great Western diagrams and some Midland square-light carriages of 1896-1901 that are well left of field for the present project! But just for fun, here's a 4-wheel clerestory carriage of the Great Yarmouth and Stalham Light Railway.

2 minutes ago, JohnR said:

A request for @Hattons Dave- Have you thought about doing a version in a Camping Coach livery?

 

Vide supra.

[ChrisN]

My take on this is that over all I welcome these coaches as hopefully it will encourage others to think more about the early days of railways and build pre-grouping layouts.  I would have preferred that they had taken say, the Metropolitan Wagon Company (?) coaches and used them as they could be used generically but still be right for various early companies.  If they removed the beading, it could easily be applied using scoring and 10 though rod.  ('Easily' = 'you did what?  You must be bonkers!')  Yes but it is possible.

 

There were so many different pre-grouping companies it would be impossible to supply everyone's need, and it would not be financially viable.  To do it this way makes sense.  Running this type of four wheel behind the right loco is no worse than using Andrew Stadden's Edwardian figures in a layout set in 1880.  (Ducks for cover.)

 

However, if the chassis were available separately then that would be a real plus as it would enable coaches to be scratchbuilt and take the difficult bit of six wheel coaches going round tight corners away.

[Edwardian]

24 minutes ago, Hattons Dave said:

Morning all,

 

Thanks for the continued feedback. I'm going to be looking in to a variety of things moving forward.

One of these being the potential of adding a full brake to the range.

I'll be sure to post back once I have any more information to share.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

 

That is further good news. Thanks Hattons Dave.

 

I think the strength of these is that they will be accurate in the sense of prototypical. 

 

Mention has been made of the old Hornby 4-wheeler.  Aside from being old hat and crude, that was an unprototypical model.  The roof profile and panel style suggests a period in which there would not really have been 3-compt. coaches.  The panel/beading representation (using raised beading rather than recessed panels) was very unprototypical, and the underframe entirely inappropriate.

 

In contrast to this. Hattons seem to be offering a prototype-literate product. It's accurate in the way it represents coaches of the period. 

 

I have taken the liberty of feeding back on some specific points, in the hope that this will be of use as the project is in the CAD stage, but these represent suggested minor tweaks to what is clearly a well designed range. I won't, therefore, include details here, but they are such things as the removal of the lower beading that Compound mentioned, and querying the treatment of the lav. compartment in coach CL as a door.

 

Finally, I noted one feature is  an "Optional semi-permanent coupling bar representing a coupling chain".  Hopefully this will provide close, semi-permanent, coupling, and I'm very interested in that; whether done via representations of couplings or connected vac hoses. They might make a useful accessory in their own right. 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by Edwardian
grammar

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Legend said:

they've also appeared from Hornby in Midland Crimson to run with their old compound

 

Indeed - it's called "how to induce apoplexy in Great Western and Midland enthusiasts in one go"!

 

 

I hope Hattons will excuse me using an image from their website in this context.

 

The old Triang clerestories were given a similar makeover once upon a time.

 

 

 

[PhilJ W]

4 minutes ago, Paul.Uni said:

I can see myself purchasing some in SE&CR, NCB, Longmoor, Met and S&DJR liveries depending on how right or wrong they look to my eyes. I suspect the doors could be the deal breaker for the Met livered carriages.

I thought about the MET's round topped doors as well. I doubt that there will be a special version to cover just the MET stock. The only Met stock with rectangular vents were the re-bodied rigid eight wheelers used on the Brill branch.

[Joseph_Pestell]

13 hours ago, RichardLong said:

These look great!

 

One observation, I'm slightly surprised that the 4-coach SR set includes a lavatory vehicle.  I'd have thought the target market for these might have been people wanting to recreate Isle of Wight formations of the 1930s (as shown in Hattons' own list of sample formations) and these wouldn't have had lavatories.  Looks like I'll be ordering individual vehicles and not the 4-coach set...

 

Also, how easy will it be to remove the "removeable" centre wheelset from the 6-wheelers?  Will it just pop-out in your hand?  (Again, I think former 6-wheelers usually ran as 4-wheelers on the IOW).

 

Well done to Hattons for filling a large gap in the market!

 

 

I don't think it is a lavatory vehicle. Looks like a luggage compartment.

[Legend]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Unproven. In fact there is a counter-example: Hornby's Great Western 56 ft corridor clerestory carriages. For all their many and manifest defects, they're basically faithful to the prototype and have been steady sellers for 30 years or more - or at least one presumes so, since they keep being re-issued.

 

Sorry duplicated!

Edited October 9, 2019 by Legend

[Edwardian]

6 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I don't think it is a lavatory vehicle. Looks like a luggage compartment.

 

I agree, but some of these, perhaps all, are billed as lavatory vehicles.  As such, they should not have exterior doors, whereas of course a central luggage compartment would. I have made this comment to Hattons, so I'd be interested in seeing what they do. 

 

EDIT: Hattons have kindly confirmed that it's not a door, just the controversial lower beading currently shown on the design makes it look that way. So, definitely a lav. compartment then! 

 

They have also confirmed that there will be lookouts, which answers Miss Prism.

Edited October 9, 2019 by Edwardian

[PhilJ W]

Someone mentioned removing the centre axle of the 6 wheelers. The generic history of these vehicles was that they went from four to six wheels as coaches became larger and then back to four wheels but still larger than many of the old four wheelers. The reason for this was most were fitted with wrought iron or Maunsell wooden wheels. As technology moved on stronger steel wheels became available eliminating the need for a centre axle.

[Wickham Green]

15 hours ago, Northroader said:

On the matter of 6wheel/ 4wheel coaches, quite a lot of 1880s era coaches started life as 6 wheelers, but got converted at a later date to 4wheelers, simplification of:maintenance probably the main reason. You can usually pick them out by a strengthening truss placed amidships. Back on the starter to this thread, the second vehicle in the header photo is one, and there’s one in the LMS set shown.

Don't take too much notice of the chassis under 'preserved' four-wheelers : the vast majority of these coaches ( including the two in the header photo ) are former grounded bodies mounted on parcels van underframes of Southern Railway origin - or similar. ( 12'' to the foot kit-bashing )

[Mark Saunders]

22 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Don't give up on the Triang clerestories; these just add to the pool. 

 

 

Even better they have reappeared in the 2019 releases!

[Hroth]

7 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

Even better they have reappeared in the 2019 releases!

 

Both kinds, but vanishing rapidly into the pool?

 

[Steamport Southport]

38 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

As noted several times the market for one style is very limited and therefore not viable, that’s why Modelrail didn’t do the matching W&U coach for the J70. While a GWR version or a SR IoW one might have broken even it wouldn’t have sold the numbers these hopefully will and I very much doubt we’d have seen LNWR, L&Y & Metropolitan that I’ll buy a few of each. Fact is I’ll only buy a few in two of those liveries but 2-3 of sets in LNWR so that kinda supports the viability notes as even in LNWR I’m only buying the equivalent of a full mainline set of bogie coaches. 

 

The reason why Model Rail didn't do the W&U stock was price. They would have to sell them for over £100 to break even. How many would pay that for a carriage? Not many.

 

Besides they were basically redundant after the 1920s when passenger services stopped so weren't even compatible with LNER and BR liveried J70s. So unless you model the Kelvedon & Tollesbury Light Railway or are modelling the Titfield Thunderbolt they are useless.

 

 

 

Jason

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

24 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

...Hattons seem to be offering a prototype-literate product. It's accurate in the way it represents coaches of the period...

That's a good expression. Attention to details such as differences in compartment lengths by class, and the reduced panel width between the last quarter light and the coach end, will make a significant difference to the overall impression the vehicles give.

 

[Steamport Southport]

42 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Mention has been made of the old Hornby 4-wheeler.  Aside from being old hat and crude, that was an unprototypical model.  The roof profile and panel style suggests a period in which there would not really have been 3-compt. coaches.  The panel/beading representation (using raised beading rather than recessed panels) was very unprototypical, and the underframe entirely inappropriate.

 

 

 

Erm. It was a Somerset & Dorset design. The drawings were in Model Railways in the 1970s. So it's probably more accurate than these with a few compromises for the era.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/89335-Hornby-four-wheel-coach/

 

 

 

Jason

[RichardLong]

42 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

I agree, but some of these, perhaps all, are billed as lavatory vehicles.  As such, they should not have exterior doors, whereas of course a central luggage compartment would. I have made this comment to Hattons, so I'd be interested in seeing what they do. 

 

EDIT: Hattons have kindly confirmed that it's not a door, just the controversial lower beading currently shown on the design makes it look that way. So, definitely a lav. compartment then! 

 

 

I thought it looked like a lavatory!  I know these are meant to be generic (which is no bad thing) but if they're thinking generic pre-war IOW for the SR ones then it really shouldn't have a lavatory.  I think these are great and I'll definitely be getting some - but not the 4-coach set with the lavatory compartment.

 

[Edwardian]

5 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Erm. It was a Somerset & Dorset design. The drawings were in Model Railways in the 1970s. So it's probably more accurate than these with a few compromises for the era.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/89335-Hornby-four-wheel-coach/

 

 

 

Jason

 

The only thing the Hornby model has in common with the S&DJR coach is that it has 3-compartments.  As I said, 3-compt. coaches were hardly typical of the period of the paneling Hornby has attempted to represent.

 

The proportions are obviously different, as is the roof radius, quite apart from the detail.  To say this is a model of the S&DJR coach is like saying a Labrador is a Dachshund because they both have 4 legs and a tail!

 

Link

[Joseph_Pestell]

11 minutes ago, RichardLong said:

 

I thought it looked like a lavatory!  I know these are meant to be generic (which is no bad thing) but if they're thinking generic pre-war IOW for the SR ones then it really shouldn't have a lavatory.  I think these are great and I'll definitely be getting some - but not the 4-coach set with the lavatory compartment.

 

 

If I  get any of these, perhaps for an IoW-based layout (?), I would simply scribe some lines into the side so that they could become a luggage compartment.

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, PaulRhB said:

the market for one style is very limited and therefore not viable, that’s why Modelrail didn’t do the matching W&U coach for the J70. 

 

54 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

The reason why Model Rail didn't do the W&U stock was price. They would have to sell them for over £100 to break even. 

That’s what I said,  Limited market = higher price to make it viable and if these Hattons ones were specific I suspect you could add another £10-20 to their price too. The question is would people baulk at “a clearly GWR” coach in GNR etc more than a generic one? I think the price point for the  compromise is spot on.   

Edited October 9, 2019 by PaulRhB

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just checked the original pics from Hatton's.

 

There are both 6w lavatory vehicles (no doors) and 6w vehicles with 4 passenger compartments and a luggage compartment. But the latter don't seem to be on the price list/order form.

[ColHut]

I am unable to get excited at a generic range of coaches like this.. 

 

Sorry 

 

I would have preferred one or two sets that were right for at least one prototype even if the liveries then applied. were not always appropriate.

 

It seems a regressive step to be introducing generic coach sets which have otherwise been greatly complained of over the years.. My feeling is that as the period is outside the experience of many ( including me) they do not look so obviously wrong for the livery to bother people.

 

For me it seems as if you may as well use the Hornby 4 wheelers in their many liveries.

 

I am not even sure why it bugs me when they look like very nice models, and they are at least RTR.

 

I think I should perhaps appreciate that using the six foot rule, pre grouping locos will at least have more readily accessible stock to haul. 

 

Good luck to Hattons then.

 

regards.