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'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement


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6 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

 

You can't get de ja vu for the first time.

I think when you get de ja vu for the first time, it's really the second time.

 

You can't get de ja vu for the first time.

I think when you get de ja vu for the first time, it's really the second time.


I knew you were going to say that! :jester: :jester:

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5 hours ago, Shanghai Diver said:

Hattons are a single point of distribution (at least I am not aware of being able to buy Hattons products outside of the Hattons ecosystem).  Whilst they are very well known, they are not known to everyone. Hornby awareness, 99%? Hattons as a retailer, 75%? As a manufacturer? 45% (probably generous across the entire base)? Hornby have 99% distribution across all outlets. Walking into Alton or Eastleigh, Rails or wherever, Hornby are there. It is that  passing trade Hattons don't get (OK, stores shut for now).

 

Whilst it looks cheeky, there is some wonderful share of market stuff going on here and consumer market segmentations.  As the category leader, the (possibly cheeky look) work Hornby have done will almost certainly lift the entire 4 / 6 wheeler segment.  Which is good. The market becomes bigger, more people are satisfied and all parties benefit.  4/6 wheelers are going to take a much larger share of passenger stock in 2021 than before. Passenger stock likely to be bigger share of total category, because of.

 

 

The two big players are defending ground in a saturated market. There is so much stuff now that I go "that's nice but don't really need it as X is doing something else more suitable for me". Where as in the past, there was no such much choice announced.

Hornby not only need to defend ground but equally remain the main player bringing new blood into the hobby. The market dying out serves no one even big shops like Hattons.

Now generics are being done by two companies, there success could lead to accurate models of 4/6 wheel coaches.

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9 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

 

You can't get de ja vu for the first time.

I think when you get de ja vu for the first time, it's really the second time.

 

You can't get de ja vu for the first time.

I think when you get de ja vu for the first time, it's really the second time.

@Les1952 was referencing Yogi Berra’s famous quote “it’s deja vu all over again”

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6 hours ago, Shanghai Diver said:

Hattons are a single point of distribution (at least I am not aware of being able to buy Hattons products outside of the Hattons ecosystem).

You've not looked very hard then. This was why Bachmann got the hump with them.

Hattons at Rails

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8 hours ago, Shanghai Diver said:

Hattons are a single point of distribution (at least I am not aware of being able to buy Hattons products outside of the Hattons ecosystem).  Whilst they are very well known, they are not known to everyone. Hornby awareness, 99%? Hattons as a retailer, 75%? As a manufacturer? 45% (probably generous across the entire base)? Hornby have 99% distribution across all outlets. Walking into Alton or Eastleigh, Rails or wherever, Hornby are there. It is that  passing trade Hattons don't get (OK, stores shut for now).

 

But Alton stock Hattons models - perhaps not all (I say that because I don't know) but they definitely stock some.

 

The situation is I think a lot more complex that many portray.  Hattons went into commissioned models when supplies from Hornby were erratic to say the least and at a time when Hornby were seriously reducing trade discount.  Hattons no doubt weighed up various things and decided to follow the Kernow lead of going into commissioning of models.

 

Hattons then 'crossed a line' (I think it might be a Class 66 line?)  with Bachmann which led to Bachmann ceasing to supply them in accordance with some very explicit wording in their trading terms.  But Hattons appear not to have been unduly worried by that and they remain, in financial terms, a bigger business than Bachmann Europe and they continue as a commissioner plus what might loosely be termed 'a manufacturer' with other retailers stocking Hattons branded products (which are not just locos of course).   It is part of the way the trade has gone and now Kernow have donesomething similar although in their case it is through their commissioned models appearing via Bachmann Europe's EFE Rail brand.

 

The retail and manufacturing part of our hobby is still undergoing changes - now as part of the reaction to Covid as well as earlier initiatives - and that will no doubt continue and probably develop - the Rails/NRM Locomotion involvement is another example of such a change.  Overall, together with fast moving newcomers such as Accurascale and Cavalex, the established major brands are in a rapidly changing competitive environment where in some of Hornby's market areas they face growing competition for our money.  Thus far Hornby's main recent reaction to this competition is to go at some of it head-on particularly where they can use their mass market appeal to finance new tooling or make use of old tooling to undercut the newcomers with more basic models at a much keener price.   That latter strikes me as Hornby cleverly using its strength in depth with minimal cost implications but I suspect the new tooling situation is always going to be reliant on their brand name and possibly wider spread of outlets.  And trading on your brand name can bite the other way if you don't sustain, through the models you release, the image it has built up in the past.  'Design clever' didn't do the brand image much good and that shows how easy it can be to come up with a less favourable image in part of your market although they have since recovered.

 

But as ever RMweb readders and contributors are not the whole market and Hornby is in a wide diversity of market areas.

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14 hours ago, JSpencer said:

 

 

Hornby not only need to defend ground but equally remain the main player bringing new blood into the hobby. The market dying out serves no one even big shops like Hattons.

Now generics are being done by two companies, there success could lead to accurate models of 4/6 wheel coaches.

 

That was the line of thinking when Hattons released the freelance coaches. This would open a market and accurate ones would follow.

 

Well, Hornby have followed with more fiction for the simple reason that it is cheaper to do a one size fits all model and release it in a myriad of liveries.

 

Why on earth would anybody do the research involved and make models of any real prototype now to release?

 

Craig W

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Mark Dickerson said:

I'd be up for a few North London Railway 4-wheelers. Different roof profile, and ended up on a number of Light Railways and random places.:unknw_mini:

Including the Pallot Museum on Jersey!

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5 hours ago, Craigw said:

 

Why on earth would anybody do the research involved and make models of any real prototype now to release?

Hornby as a brand name have been doing freelance / generic stuff since day 1 so maybe Hattons are following a long tradition?

Hornby had recognisable models pre WW2 and then moved into decent scale reproductions in Dublo era, wavered back a bit in the Triang era and went full on with the Bulleids in the super detail era. While all that was going on they’ve had Polly and other starter locos and various bits of stock like the four wheel coaches in the catalogue for the last 50 years. So why can’t it exist alongside the scale exact stuff again? ;)  

I had a Battleforce set with an exploding US boxcar, tank & helicopter of dubious heritage and an 08 with inside frames yet I have three scale model layouts with correct stock and quite a collection of tanks and aircraft. They are all part of the hobby and have been for the last 45+ years I’ve been conscious of toy vs model being different things with a variety in the grey area in between  :) 

It’s a practical compromise many are happy to accept because they are a lot closer to real ones than the ancient Hornby 4 wheelers and that makes it a risk worth taking for the manufacturer. People freelance locos regularly in NG modelling and yes some get very upset by it but others see the modelling for what it is a likely might have been. NG modelling has the advantage that there were even more real homebuilt locos built on remains of an older one than things like the mobile sheds in the quirky poll!
Even real railways are still doing it, Emmett that ran at Woody Bay when the L&B was getting started is a new build on a diesel chassis rescued from Purbeck. 

It’s not going to see wholesale generalised models take over now as it hasn’t before ;)  

Edited by PaulRhB
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On 05/01/2021 at 17:18, atom3624 said:

 

Regarding the coach-powered wheels

Are we talking about diesel multiple units?

 

On 05/01/2021 at 19:10, Zunnan said:

 that'd be like selling a Villa shirt in Birmingham City colours. 

How?  The basic shirt is absolutely interchangeable, unless Villa play in blouses, which they may do, as I don't speak soccer.

 

On 06/01/2021 at 02:15, drt7uk said:

Sticking with Hattons too! Think this was a bit of a petty move from Hornby

I couldn't see the manifesto promise that the model train sector was also being nationalised; although I suppose post-Covid it's possible that it could follow the real railway, for extra fidelity to prototype.  

 

 

On 08/01/2021 at 02:55, Shanghai Diver said:

 

Whilst Hornby are not P&G they are savvy enough to do their consumer segmentation.  

P&G?   Proctor & Gamble? 

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4 minutes ago, 'CHARD said:

Are we talking about diesel multiple units?

 

Talk about picking groups of words to appear out of context ...  :wub:

 

Original text:

"It's nice that enthusiastic entrepreneurs and very-long-term enthusiastic dealers / commercial operations like Hattons increase their interests, and assist in increasing the quality of products on the market, and choices available, so definitely agreed, I hope they continue - no reason why not - more and better detailed after all.

 

Regarding the coach-powered wheels, I agree they are more convenient in the respect of not requiring to change batteries every month, but I find the increased drag a nuisance, and also find that rails can get 'dirty' - an oxide layer more likely - more quickly.  Bit of swings and roundabouts."

 

This refers to wheels picking up power from the track ... not DMU's, which isn't relevant to this thread.

 

Al.

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Just now, atom3624 said:

 

Talk about picking groups of words to appear out of context ...  :wub:

 

Original text:

"It's nice that enthusiastic entrepreneurs and very-long-term enthusiastic dealers / commercial operations like Hattons increase their interests, and assist in increasing the quality of products on the market, and choices available, so definitely agreed, I hope they continue - no reason why not - more and better detailed after all.

 

Regarding the coach-powered wheels, I agree they are more convenient in the respect of not requiring to change batteries every month, but I find the increased drag a nuisance, and also find that rails can get 'dirty' - an oxide layer more likely - more quickly.  Bit of swings and roundabouts."

 

This refers to wheels picking up power from the track ... not DMU's, which isn't relevant to this thread.

 

Al.

 

Talk about missing the point, Al!   

 

Coach-powered wheels????    In what way are these wheels coach-powered - I assume you meant coach-powered lights.  

 

Anyway, sorry that I didn't apply an emoji to highlight that the post was intended ironically!  :rolleyes: 

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On 08/01/2021 at 08:15, JSpencer said:

 

The two big players are defending ground in a saturated market. There is so much stuff now that I go "that's nice but don't really need it as X is doing something else more suitable for me". Where as in the past, there was no such much choice announced.

Hornby not only need to defend ground but equally remain the main player bringing new blood into the hobby. The market dying out serves no one even big shops like Hattons.

Now generics are being done by two companies, there success could lead to accurate models of 4/6 wheel coaches.

Or, if going head-to-head results in neither making much out of it, there's a danger of everybody being put off the idea.

 

There's nothing like duplication for exposing the real size of a market.

 

John

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19 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Or, if going head-to-head results in neither making much out of it, there's a danger of everybody being put off the idea.

 

There's nothing like duplication for exposing the real size of a market.

 

John

 

Have an order placed with Hatton's but at the same time will acquire a couple of Hornby's as many pictures i have seen have shown variations in carriages in a rake.

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I'm not worried about lighting as I will use them as support vehicles for a rail gun. I'm not sure if stock used for that purpose had any lighting at all. It certainly shouldn't show in blackout conditions.

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A question (and apologies if this isn’t quite the right place).  I’m modelling a ‘could have been’ preserved railway and fancy some of these, to build up a rake of vintage carriages (alongside a Ratio LNWR corridor third) in the mould of the Stately Trains fleet at Embsay.  For various reasons, I fancy featuring Midland and L&Y coaches (say a brake and 2-3 other).  Now the amount I know about pre grouping coaches can be written on a postage stamp with a yard brush.  So, I’m after a bit of advice.  Which of these are nearest an actual prototype (because I’m modelling preserved, I’m not massively worried about chassis details, they’d all be recovered bodies on fish van and stove chassis anyway) that would pass the 50/50 (can’t see any problems at 50 feet away or when it goes past at 50 mph) test?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Owain

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29 minutes ago, Firecracker said:

A question (and apologies if this isn’t quite the right place).  I’m modelling a ‘could have been’ preserved railway and fancy some of these, to build up a rake of vintage carriages (alongside a Ratio LNWR corridor third) in the mould of the Stately Trains fleet at Embsay.  For various reasons, I fancy featuring Midland and L&Y coaches (say a brake and 2-3 other).  Now the amount I know about pre grouping coaches can be written on a postage stamp with a yard brush.  So, I’m after a bit of advice.  Which of these are nearest an actual prototype (because I’m modelling preserved, I’m not massively worried about chassis details, they’d all be recovered bodies on fish van and stove chassis anyway) that would pass the 50/50 (can’t see any problems at 50 feet away or when it goes past at 50 mph) test?

 

The Genesis carriages are nothing like L&Y carriages, which had a very distinctive panelling style, largely devoid of beading. Some characteristic examples here and a preserved one here.

 

The 6-wheelers are closer to Midland carriages, though they are 4 mm too long and lack the characteristic turn-under or tumblehome of the ends. Typical example here, preserved one in spurious livery, but on its original underframe (minus footboards) here.

 

As I mentioned above (or possibly in the Hornby thread) they're seredipitously close to NER 6-wheelers, of which I don't think there are any preserved examples, though there are a number of rotting bodies around. Perhaps your preserved line has done something about this?

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The Genesis carriages are nothing like L&Y carriages, which had a very distinctive panelling style, largely devoid of beading. Some characteristic examples here and a preserved one here.

Fair enough.  I’d found the lack of beading on several examples, but didn’t know if that was universal across the L&Y fleet.  Already suspected they weren’t a good match for LNWR (also not many LNWR 4&6w surviving bodies).

16 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The 6-wheelers are closer to Midland carriages, though they are 4 mm too long and lack the characteristic turn-under or tumblehome of the ends. Typical example here, preserved one in spurious livery, but on its original underframe (minus footboards) here.

Good enough for me.  I’d noticed the lack of tumblehome on the ends, but again didn’t know if that was universal.

16 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

As I mentioned above (or possibly in the Hornby thread) they're seredipitously close to NER 6-wheelers, of which I don't think there are any preserved examples, though there are a number of rotting bodies around. Perhaps your preserved line has done something about this?

 

 

Never say never, hadn’t realised or thought of NER.  Considering they set off recovering LMS bodies from Aberdeenshire farms, anything’s possible.  I’ll have to do more digging.  Thanks again for the scholarship.

 

Owain

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2 hours ago, 'CHARD said:

 

How?  The basic shirt is absolutely interchangeable, unless Villa play in blouses, which they may do, as I don't speak soccer.

 

 

The team shirt isn't interchangeable, its a completely different cut of cloth. If both were presented in bleached white you could clearly well that each are from different sources; not necessarily where they came from, but even without the colours they are very different.

 

The interchangeable shirt would be the Fruit of the Loom one size fits all shirt you see sold on market stalls.

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1 minute ago, Zunnan said:

 

The team shirt isn't interchangeable, its a completely different cut of cloth. If both were presented in bleached white you could clearly well that each are from different sources; not necessarily where they came from, but even without the colours they are very different.

 

The interchangeable shirt would be the Fruit of the Loom one size fits all shirt you see sold on market stalls.

 

Well I never!  Every day is indeed a school day :)

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