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'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement


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54 minutes ago, Fredo said:

Hi, have just bought an NCB Loco from Hattons, does anyone know how long the coaches that Hattons are bringing out in packs stayed in use till. Thanks Fred 

 

Since the Hattons carriages do not represent a specific prototype, Rule 1 applies.

 

But I dare say those with knowledge of such things can report on the latest date for 4- or 6-wheel carriages in NCB use. On the Cannock Chase lines, they were certainly in use into the late 1950s.

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As regards coach rooflines I am reminded of my days when I modelled LGB products.  Many of us are anal retentive being particularly fussy that rooflines and liveries are matching over the full length of a train.  A case comes to mind of a production run of a Zillertalbahn "U" class steam locomotive which  prototypically had a very low cab roofline.  Knowing that most modellers would have liked the loco cab roof to align with the coaches in the rake,  the manufacturer specifically raised the cab roof to match the roofline of the coaches, even though unprototypical.  They did release a more prototypical low cab roof model for the more discerning modellers.

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From the pictures that I have seen, the Hattons Genesis product seems to be better than its competitor, particularly below deck and on the ends.  I had two short rakes pre-ordered before the Hornby version was announced, and I have stayed with these.  However I now have several Hornby GNR coaches in transit as well.  This is down to (a) Hornby's ability to render the teak livery and (b) them being available now.  It is going to be interesting to see how they compare in fact.

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18 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

I am reminded of my days when I modelled LGB products.

 

Ahhh, those halcyon days before the TQI+ABC123 brigade insisted on separate recognition! Simpler times.

 

IGMC

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In the hope that this photo appears OK, I include one of a cigarette card inherited from my late father illustrating what appears to be a 6 wheel coach converted for weedkilling train purposes. Apologies for the indifferent quality but it is mounted behind glass with 49 others and inseparable. Curiously it appears at first glance to have lookout duckets at both ends though those nearest the artist seem to be cut off at the waist (so to speak). The card dates from the 1930's and is one of a series depicting 'railway equipment'. The train looks as if it might be GWR in origin but doubtless learned colleagues will confirm or otherwise and risk an off topic thread diversion. I post only in case it provides inspiration for someone with the requisite skills to try a model of it based on one of the current offerings (either Hattons or Hornby). Best of luck.

Weedkilling train.jpg

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11 minutes ago, Tramshed said:

In the hope that this photo appears OK, I include one of a cigarette card inherited from my late father illustrating what appears to be a 6 wheel coach converted for weedkilling train purposes. Apologies for the indifferent quality but it is mounted behind glass with 49 others and inseparable. Curiously it appears at first glance to have lookout duckets at both ends though those nearest the artist seem to be cut off at the waist (so to speak). The card dates from the 1930's and is one of a series depicting 'railway equipment'. The train looks as if it might be GWR in origin but doubtless learned colleagues will confirm or otherwise and risk an off topic thread diversion. I post only in case it provides inspiration for someone with the requisite skills to try a model of it based on one of the current offerings (either Hattons or Hornby). Best of luck.

Weedkilling train.jpg

I suspect the duckets at the near end have been cut down and then the remaining incorporated into the tank?

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I don't think those were "duckets" at all.

They are made up of the two side pieces (to match the already proven "in-gauge" duckets) and a top shelf, which appears to hold the handle (and bearing feed through apparatus) to rotate the out of gauge spray pipes and nozzles. (The vertical handle rod can be seen going up between the duckets sides.)

 

Great photo image though.

 

 

Kev.

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11 minutes ago, SHMD said:

I don't think those were "duckets" at all.

They are made up of the two side pieces (to match the already proven "in-gauge" duckets) and a top shelf, which appears to hold the handle (and bearing feed through apparatus) to rotate the out of gauge spray pipes and nozzles. (The vertical handle rod can be seen going up between the duckets sides.)

 

Great photo image though.

 

 

Kev.

The image seems to represent a SR train judging by the tenders, and there were SECR 6-wheel full brakes with duckets at both ends that would facilitate such a conversion.

 

Re-purposing of otherwise redundant vehicles for such uses would be done with the minimum possible alterations.

 

A cut-and-shut of two Hattons 6-w brake third bodies, thereby "liberating" the second underframe for other uses looks pretty tempting...

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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and thanks to Dr David Turner, a photo of said train, including what appears to be the equipment inside of the brake van

 

(You'll have to click through for the full image)

 

 

Edited by BlueLightning
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On 13/02/2021 at 21:43, truffy said:

 

Ahhh, those halcyon days before the TQI+ABC123 brigade insisted on separate recognition! Simpler times.

 

IGMC

 

Yes, it was much simpler before the trains activists insisted on being added to the acronym.

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4 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

The image seems to represent a SR train judging by the tenders, and there were SECR 6-wheel full brakes with duckets at both ends that would facilitate such a conversion.

 

Re-purposing of otherwise redundant vehicles for such uses would be done with the minimum possible alterations.

 

A cut-and-shut of two Hattons 6-w brake third bodies, thereby "liberating" the second underframe for other uses looks pretty tempting...

 

John

Branchlines do or did a etched  kit for the six wheeled van with duckets at both ends. I have an unbuilt one.

The duckets were cut down at one end for the weed killing train conversion.

I am trying to think what else was in the train. looks like a motley collection of old tenders on the postcard. I am sure that there has been an article about it somewhere.

 

Ray

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On 15/02/2021 at 17:20, Dunsignalling said:

The image seems to represent a SR train judging by the tenders, and there were SECR 6-wheel full brakes with duckets at both ends that would facilitate such a conversion.

 

Re-purposing of otherwise redundant vehicles for such uses would be done with the minimum possible alterations.

 

A cut-and-shut of two Hattons 6-w brake third bodies, thereby "liberating" the second underframe for other uses looks pretty tempting...

 

John

More than likely Southern Railway as there is a third rail in the cigarette card picture, part of a nice collection of cards by the looks of it! Thanks for the image, interesting stuff. 

 

Best wishes, 

 

Jim. 

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On 13/02/2021 at 04:14, KymN said:

From the pictures that I have seen, the Hattons Genesis product seems to be better than its competitor, particularly below deck and on the ends. 

I'd agree about the underframes, judging from what I've seen of the Hattons Genesis coaches, but the ends are different to, rather than better than, Hornby's.  Hornby have modelled a coach with vertically planked ends while Hattons have panelled ends.  Both are valid approaches.

 

A significant difference IMHO is that Hornby have used wheelsets without pointed axle ends held in tubes, which makes replacing wheels difficult as the axleboxes do not have recesses for pin point axles, and it is difficult to drill such recesses as there is  another axlebox about 18mm away blocking your access to drill square to the workface.  I assume that Hattons coaches use conventional wheelsets with pinpoint axle ends, a much better approach!

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On 18/02/2021 at 20:03, The Johnster said:

I'd agree about the underframes, judging from what I've seen of the Hattons Genesis coaches, but the ends are different to, rather than better than, Hornby's.  Hornby have modelled a coach with vertically planked ends while Hattons have panelled ends.  Both are valid approaches.

 

A significant difference IMHO is that Hornby have used wheelsets without pointed axle ends held in tubes, which makes replacing wheels difficult as the axleboxes do not have recesses for pin point axles, and it is difficult to drill such recesses as there is  another axlebox about 18mm away blocking your access to drill square to the workface.  I assume that Hattons coaches use conventional wheelsets with pinpoint axle ends, a much better approach!

I didn't realise that Hornby has issued two types of ends to their carriages. I've got some LBSC four wheelers, and an NBR six wheeler, and they all have five panelled ends, the same as the Hattons' CAD drawings, both matching for LBSC designs. It's a bit unfair criticising Hornby for "omitting" details which were not present on the originals they based their design on, but I suppose fair game if considering a more generic application. For example, the Brighton used an electric communication system, Stroudley-Rusbridge, which only manifested itself on the ends as a small fixing plate and a cable, hence there is no need for the rodding as on one of the Hattons' ends, likewise the paucity of underframe detail, due to the use of discreet Westinghouse brakes, and not the cumbersome vacuum equipment.

It is quite easy to remove the internal bearings, but why not use shorter axles without the pin-points and limit the rather excessive play on the ends with washers, or there are tools that are available to allow you to drill out for bearings, specifically for these instances, but I cannot recall who supplies them.

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2 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

It's a bit unfair criticising Hornby for "omitting" details which were not present on the originals they based their design on, but I suppose fair game if considering a more generic application. For example, the Brighton used an electric communication system, Stroudley-Rusbridge, which only manifested itself on the ends as a small fixing plate and a cable, hence there is no need for the rodding as on one of the Hattons' ends, likewise the paucity of underframe detail, due to the use of discreet Westinghouse brakes, and not the cumbersome vacuum equipment.

 

 

And therein lies the problem.

 

Most railways in the UK used vacuum brakes and mechanical emergency alarm gear - not Westinghouse air brakes and most certainly not a patented Stroudley electric communication system.

 

Hattons approach to 'Generic' coach equipment is thus a far more sensible one to take and will look far better painted up in a variety of liveries than Hornbys Stroudley based designs.

 

I have a set of Hornby 4 wheelers in LBSCR livery - but everything else I am looking for livery wise will be coming from Hattons.

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3 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

I didn't realise that Hornby has issued two types of ends to their carriages. I've got some LBSC four wheelers, and an NBR six wheeler, and they all have five panelled ends, the same as the Hattons' CAD drawings, both matching for LBSC designs. It's a bit unfair criticising Hornby for "omitting" details which were not present on the originals they based their design on, but I suppose fair game if considering a more generic application. For example, the Brighton used an electric communication system, Stroudley-Rusbridge, which only manifested itself on the ends as a small fixing plate and a cable, hence there is no need for the rodding as on one of the Hattons' ends, likewise the paucity of underframe detail, due to the use of discreet Westinghouse brakes, and not the cumbersome vacuum equipment.

It is quite easy to remove the internal bearings, but why not use shorter axles without the pin-points and limit the rather excessive play on the ends with washers, or there are tools that are available to allow you to drill out for bearings, specifically for these instances, but I cannot recall who supplies them.

What's the difference in the ends ?

Anybody got a picture of each type ?

 

All the best

Ray

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59 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

What's the difference in the ends ?

Anybody got a picture of each type ?

 

All the best

Ray

As I said, there is no difference between an LBSC 4w and the NBR 6w ends.  But, for all I know, Hornby might have produced a planked end for some of the other lines, but I doubt it.

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At what width does a plank become a panel?  The photos of the non brake ends of the EPs of the Hattons 4 and 6 wheel coaches and the non brake ends of the Hornby 6 wheel coaches that I have all have 5 equal width full height panels.

Edited by SR Chris
Checked my facts before adding an observation.
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31 minutes ago, SR Chris said:

At what width does a plank become a panel?  The photos of the non brake ends of the EPs of the Hattons 4 and 6 wheel coaches and the non brake ends of the Hornby 6 wheel coaches that I have all have 5 equal width full height panels.

 

It's a question not of width but of method of construction. The real carriage body has a wooden frame, with (in this case) six vertical end pillars (including the corner pillars); these are around 3" wide by 2¼" deep (the corner pillars being 3" x 3" with a rebate cut out on the inside corner). To this are nailed or screwed wooden panels, ⅜" - ½" thick. The joints between the panels are covered with beading strips, also ⅜" - ½" thick and around 1½" wide, with the outer edges half-round. These beading strips are also nailed or screwed in place, the area around nail or screw heads being filled and sanded down so that the fixings are invisible. On the inside, the compartment end wall is made of boards of similar thickness, nailed horizontally or diagonally across the end pillars. These boards may be 9" - 12" wide. 

 

So I think we've got panels, made of tropical hardwood panelling boards, and boarding, made of deal boards. Neither, I think, are planks.

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I think that is right.  Ends of coaches from that period tended to be of two sorts, one with vertical boarding over the framework, which I incorrectly called planking, and one with ply sheeting decorated with beading, which I incorrectly called panelling.  The 'panel' is the ply sheet, and the beading a separate component serving a merely decorative purpose, but on the sides, the beading may actually be the part that covers the joins of smaller panels attached side by side to the frame, and this is I believe correctly described as panelling, and the coach as  being panelled.  Common usage describing such coaches' ends as panelled may be less correct.

 

There were also 'matchboarded' coaches, with vertically placed boards as an outer skin on a wooden inner frame.  Some GW railmotors and auto trailers were of this sort, and they could be found on other railways as well.  It is, I believe, an adaptation of American carriage building practice; the 'wild west' coaches you see in cowboy films are always of this sort, but with end vestibules.  It is not a type of construction that lends itself to compartment stock, but the Ffestiniog has some quarrymens' 4 wheelers of this sort. 

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