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'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement


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On 07/04/2021 at 15:08, Hattons Dave said:

Hi all,

 

genesis_sr_secr_lbsc_group.png.6b003e036ac6d6c31dfb5e7575b4c19e.png

 

We're pleased to show our next lot of painted samples - covering LBSCR mahogany, SECR red and SR olive green liveries. We're very pleased with how these samples are looking and we should have even more to share with you soon.

 

All Batch 1 models are expected by Q3 2021.

 

Find out more HERE

A joy! I shall look forward to the SR 6 wheel full brake carriage.

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On 07/04/2021 at 15:08, Hattons Dave said:

We're pleased to show our next lot of painted samples - covering LBSCR mahogany, SECR red and SR olive green liveries. 

 

I've only just had a close look at these. All three liveries have the bolection mouldings in the body colour and lining round the outside of the bolection mouldings. I claim no expertise on liveries south of the river but this seems unlikely to me on general principles; I hope to be come better informed quite rapidly! I'm expecting the bolection mouldings to be varnished wood as for this ex-LBSCR carriage in Southern livery. It may be that the Southern was following LSWR carriage painting conventions; I can't find good photos of restored LBSCR or SECR carriages in this style but just to get discussion going, here's a Stroudley LBSCR carriage with internal bolections and hence lining around the window reveal; how were Billington carriages with external bolections treated? SECR carriages are a special case, having LNWR-style panelling at least in the period relevant to the 4 and 6-wheelers, many of which were of SER build.

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2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I've only just had a close look at these. All three liveries have the bolection mouldings in the body colour and lining round the outside of the bolection mouldings. I claim no expertise on liveries south of the river but this seems unlikely to me on general principles; I hope to be come better informed quite rapidly! I'm expecting the bolection mouldings to be varnished wood as for this ex-LBSCR carriage in Southern livery. It may be that the Southern was following LSWR carriage painting conventions; I can't find good photos of restored LBSCR or SECR carriages in this style but just to get discussion going, here's a Stroudley LBSCR carriage with internal bolections and hence lining around the window reveal; how were Billington carriages with external bolections treated? SECR carriages are a special case, having LNWR-style panelling at least in the period relevant to the 4 and 6-wheelers, many of which were of SER build.

 

The Brighton Liveried Coaches

 

These are finished in mahogany livery, applied under Stroudley and subsequently up to 1903, when umber and white was introduced. 

 

Stroudley vastly preferred varnished mahogany. Some Brighton built coaches, and those built by outside contractors, were of cheaper wood.  These, like earlier Craven coaches, seem to have bee finished in a painted mahogany. For example, Stroudley 6-wheel First 661 of 1880 (the picture you linked to) was built with softwood panels.  It is restored in a painted mahogany livery. The Hattons models are probably best understood as painted mahogany.

 

The bolections (fitted to late-build Stroudley and Billinton coaches) seem to have been made of actual mahogany. Assuming they were varnished not painted over (I think it most unlikely they would have been painted over), there might be a slight contrast in finish. Ultimately, however, we have mahogany bolections and mahogany coloured bodies, so probably best left alone.

 

As to whether there should be lining around the fixed lights, I would say 'no'. 

 

As you note, there is lining around the quarter lights of Stroudleys (seen both in contemporary pictures of varnished coaches and on preserved 661), where there are no bolections.  Where there are bolections - as on Billinton coaches and as on the Hattons models - my judgment is that there should not be lining round the fixed lights.  

 

The clearest picture I can find is of a bogie coach of 1900 (in painted mahogany) where there is a good view of a lavatory window. 

 

20210409_113429.jpg.022582812600607711993c4d9a9694ab.jpg

 

What we are seeing above is the light reflected on the rim of the bolection around the fixed lavatory light; there is no additional lining line around it.

 

However, despite the fact that the Hattons coaches are closer to Billinton coaches than they are to Stroudleys (eerily close in some cases, given that the resemblance is coincidental), it is notable that Hattons have chosen running numbers from Stroudley coaches.

 

Given that, Hattons' application of lining around the fixed lights is consistent with the running numbers chosen.

 

What Hattons might usefully do, therefore, is:

 

(a) Change the running numbers to those for Billinton coaches. Nick Holliday of this parish has proposed 'best match' Billinton numbers for the models. 

 

(b) Delete the lining around the fixed lights.

 

Southern livery

 

Not my period of main interest by any means, but I agree, as with the SR coach you linked to (a Billinton bogie first), I would expect the bolections to be varnished and have no lining around them:

 

 403727422_BillintonBogieFirst.jpg.44b58be99d14cd6930a6fbcb2f7e7a88.jpg.0289a13afc1fe9a344e35ed6b209c17b.jpg.20a8b6e4eab1335b141e9b328ad3c92a.jpg

 

They are, for instance, even on a flush-sided Maunsell coach:

 

408472541_MaunsellBrake.jpg.29a8fb630714c77fea5300542354fc4a.jpg

 

 

Hattons treatment, below, I suspect is wrong in three respects:

 

(i) Painting the bolections green.  They should be varnished mahogany (the droplight colour is off in this respect).

 

(ii) Lining is applied around the bolections.  This should be deleted.

 

(iii) There is no gap between the lining around the vertical blind panels and the lining around the horizontal eaves panels and waist panels.  There should be a gap. however thin.  The lining around the panels is slightly distanced from the edge of the beading (in reality it would be on the curve), and this might have been positioned in order that it lines up on the horizontal with the lining around the bolections, which should not be there! 

 

Also, there is a serious issue regarding the lining of the eaves panels either side of the left hand door. 

 

genesis_sr_ps4.png.234303fd864ea2b5ff453e9c55234f18.png

 

As these are samples, it might not be too late to correct these issues.  Are you going to get in touch with Dave about this?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Edwardian
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20 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

The Brighton Liveried Coaches

 

What Hattons might usefully do, therefore, is:

 

(a) Change the running numbers to those for Billinton coaches. Nick Holliday of this parish has proposed 'best match' Billinton numbers for the models. 

 

 

As far as I can work out all the running numbers were chosen very early on and are what people have pre-ordered against, so I imagine this may be tricky to change. Given that they're not models of actual carriages, I'd settle for correct lining-out but wrong numbers for Billinton carriages, if I was buying them. (Which I'm not intending to.)

  

20 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Southern livery

 

Hattons treatment, below, I suspect is wrong in three respects:

 

(i) painting the bolections green.  They should be varnished mahogany (the droplight colour is off in this respect).

 

(ii) Lining is applied around the bolections.  This should be deleted.

 

(iii) There is no gap between the lining around the vertical blind panels and the lining around the horizontal eaves panels and waist panels.  There should be a gap. however thin.  The lining around the panels is slightly distance from the edge of the beading (in reality it would be on the curve), and this might have been positioned in order that it lines up on the horizontal with the lining around the bolections, which should not be there! 

 

Also, there is a serious issue regarding the lining of the eaves panels either side of the left hand door. 

 

Thank you for confirming my suspicions here. The lining should be on the edge of the beading, which would give the requisite gap. There has apparently been no problem printing up to the edge of the beading for the GWR and LMS/MR liveries, so should be technically possible. Really the Southern livery is just like the LMS/MR livery only in place of black beading edged yellow / gold it's green beading edged yellow. Plus of course the body is green not red!

  

20 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

As these are samples, it mat not be too late to correct these issues.  Are you going to get in touch with Dave about this?

 

He reads this thread, so I am hoping these posts will be sufficient. If he doesn't post a response, I'll give him a nudge.

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Question for Hattons:

I have pre-ordered a fair number of the SECR coaches, but I would like a reasonable rake of six-wheel thirds in addition, which at the moment with everything else that is being released by all and sundry, and me being a humble pensioner, I can't afford. So, after the first release of these SECR coaches is all sold out, will you be re-issuing them? 

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4 minutes ago, Budgie said:

Question for Hattons:

I have pre-ordered a fair number of the SECR coaches, but I would like a reasonable rake of six-wheel thirds in addition, which at the moment with everything else that is being released by all and sundry, and me being a humble pensioner, I can't afford. So, after the first release of these SECR coaches is all sold out, will you be re-issuing them? 

 

You would have to wait until after the 3rd batch of liveries at the very least. I can't see them repeating the liveries beforehand 

 

I'm rather hoping they do the darker purple lake livery next rather than doing the lighter livery being produced on the first batch.

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Hi all,

genesisbatch1group.png.309da7e49fefde6936e537c9b7d317f1.png

Following on from our recent decorated samples update - I'm pleased to share that we now have photos of the samples for the vast majority of our first batch of coaches.

 

Expected Q3 2021. 

 

Find out more, HERE

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3 minutes ago, Hattons Dave said:

Following on from our recent decorated samples update - I'm pleased to share that we now have photos of the samples for the vast majority of our first batch of coaches.

 

Looking good. Trust you've noted the discussion of the SR livery in particular, a few posts back.

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21 hours ago, Hattons Dave said:

Hi all,

genesisbatch1group.png.309da7e49fefde6936e537c9b7d317f1.png

Following on from our recent decorated samples update - I'm pleased to share that we now have photos of the samples for the vast majority of our first batch of coaches.

 

Expected Q3 2021. 

 

Find out more, HERE

Hi Dave.

Is there any likelyhood of a change to the livery for the SE & CR to the more appropriate darker red livery that would have been carried by these coaches ?

All the best

Ray

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10 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

Hi Dave.

Is there any likelyhood of a change to the livery for the SE & CR to the more appropriate darker red livery that would have been carried by these coaches ?

All the best

Ray

 

Dave is just trying to save us some money Ray. I mean I would happily throw a few hundred at these carriages in SE&CR livery, but if they come out needing repainting because Hattons won't correct the livery, despite the number of times it's been mentioned (Where is that famous "listening to feedback" I keep hearing about?) then we might as well buy accurate ones that need a paint job instead!!

 

 

 

Gary

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12 minutes ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

I thought the livery was changed to be the lighter colour anyway, both being accurate for a different period. 

 

It makes it different from the birdcages released before. Though hopefully after the initial 3 batches have been released the darker livery will be produced

Hi Matt.

The issue was not questioning that there were two different shades of red used at different times, it was that these four and six wheeled coaches were unlikely to have carried the later light red livery which came into use just before and into the beginning of WW1, as it was only applied to a limited number of vehicles essentially new build or front line ones which were kept in the best condition. Whereas, they would have definitely carried the dark version which was a carry over from SER red.

All the best

Ray

Edited by wainwright1
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SECR carriage livery is making my head hurt and confirming my thinking that my fantasy Loddon Bridge / Earley layout should be set in 1898. 

 

Improving the Southern livery should be straightforward and uncontroversial, I think.

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23 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

SECR carriage livery is making my head hurt and confirming my thinking that my fantasy Loddon Bridge / Earley layout should be set in 1898. 

 

Improving the Southern livery should be straightforward and uncontroversial, I think.

Aah yes, nice dark SER livery ! Through service from Redhill ?

Edited by wainwright1
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23 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Looking good. Trust you've noted the discussion of the SR livery in particular, a few posts back.

 

On 09/04/2021 at 12:15, Edwardian said:

 

The Brighton Liveried Coaches

 

These are finished in mahogany livery, applied under Stroudley and subsequently up to 1903, when umber and white was introduced. 

 

Stroudley vastly preferred varnished mahogany. Some Brighton built coaches, and those built by outside contractors, were of cheaper wood.  These, like earlier Craven coaches, seem to have bee finished in a painted mahogany. For example, Stroudley 6-wheel First 661 of 1880 (the picture you linked to) was built with softwood panels.  It is restored in a painted mahogany livery. The Hattons models are probably best understood as painted mahogany.

 

The bolections (fitted to late-build Stroudley and Billinton coaches) seem to have been made of actual mahogany. Assuming they were varnished not painted over (I think it most unlikely they would have been painted over), there might be a slight contrast in finish. Ultimately, however, we have mahogany bolections and mahogany coloured bodies, so probably best left alone.

 

As to whether there should be lining around the fixed lights, I would say 'no'. 

 

As you note, there is lining around the quarter lights of Stroudleys (seen both in contemporary pictures of varnished coaches and on preserved 661), where there are no bolections.  Where there are bolections - as on Billinton coaches and as on the Hattons models - my judgment is that there should not be lining round the fixed lights.  

 

The clearest picture I can find is of a bogie coach of 1900 (in painted mahogany) where there is a good view of a lavatory window. 

 

20210409_113429.jpg.022582812600607711993c4d9a9694ab.jpg

 

What we are seeing above is the light reflected on the rim of the bolection around the fixed lavatory light; there is no additional lining line around it.

 

However, despite the fact that the Hattons coaches are closer to Billinton coaches than they are to Stroudleys (eerily close in some cases, given that the resemblance is coincidental), it is notable that Hattons have chosen running numbers from Stroudley coaches.

 

Given that, Hattons' application of lining around the fixed lights is consistent with the running numbers chosen.

 

What Hattons might usefully do, therefore, is:

 

(a) Change the running numbers to those for Billinton coaches. Nick Holliday of this parish has proposed 'best match' Billinton numbers for the models. 

 

(b) Delete the lining around the fixed lights.

 

Southern livery

 

Not my period of main interest by any means, but I agree, as with the SR coach you linked to (a Billinton bogie first), I would expect the bolections to be varnished and have no lining around them:

 

 403727422_BillintonBogieFirst.jpg.44b58be99d14cd6930a6fbcb2f7e7a88.jpg.0289a13afc1fe9a344e35ed6b209c17b.jpg.20a8b6e4eab1335b141e9b328ad3c92a.jpg

 

They are, for instance, even on a flush-sided Maunsell coach:

 

408472541_MaunsellBrake.jpg.29a8fb630714c77fea5300542354fc4a.jpg

 

 

Hattons treatment, below, I suspect is wrong in three respects:

 

(i) Painting the bolections green.  They should be varnished mahogany (the droplight colour is off in this respect).

 

(ii) Lining is applied around the bolections.  This should be deleted.

 

(iii) There is no gap between the lining around the vertical blind panels and the lining around the horizontal eaves panels and waist panels.  There should be a gap. however thin.  The lining around the panels is slightly distanced from the edge of the beading (in reality it would be on the curve), and this might have been positioned in order that it lines up on the horizontal with the lining around the bolections, which should not be there! 

 

Also, there is a serious issue regarding the lining of the eaves panels either side of the left hand door. 

 

genesis_sr_ps4.png.234303fd864ea2b5ff453e9c55234f18.png

 

As these are samples, it might not be too late to correct these issues.  Are you going to get in touch with Dave about this?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the thorough feedback. We certainly will be taking this into account and updating the liveries accordingly. We will showcase updated colour layouts for them and seek further feedback before proceeding.

 

 

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3 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

Aah yes, nice dark SER livery ! Through service from Redhill ?

 

Looking at the samples, I suspect there would be some consensus that the current shade for SE&CR lake is too light and too red.

 

The question becomes. with what is it replaced?

 

The traditional modellers' practice was to paint SE&CR coaches in a reddish crimson lake,  The current vogue, apparently sparked by someone producing a undated paint sample to the SE&CR society, is to pain a dark purple lake that tends to look brown.

 

There was a heated debate elsewhere on RMWeb about this.  The result of which is that (i) I conclude there is genuine uncertainty, and (ii) I suspect that the dark purple brown is a rather late, post 1910 colour and that before then SE&CR and SER lake was a purple-crimson.  This is the livery Gould describes as rich purple lake fine-lined in gold,.

 

AVS1998 cited O. S. Nock as stating "the carriage livery was a rich dark lake, as near as makes no matter to the colour used by the Great Western between the two" chocolate and cream" periods. When new the SECR coach roofs were white, and the striking affect was enhanced by use of scarlet roof boards on all the principal expresses. ".  

 

Now, allowing for the frailties of colour memory and the imprecision of postcard colourists, that is certainly what colourised or colour illustrations of the Edwardian SE&CR seem to show with a good degree of consistency, e.g.

 

20210329_153948.jpg.c560fb218624b54f9ffece76e92cd64e.jpg.8eefd11ee7794e6e69961204616741b7.jpg

 

So, I would suggest something redder and lighter than the 1912 condition Bachmann birdcages. 

 

If we turn to the GWR 1912 livery, which O S Nock says is near as damn it to the SE&CR, we have something darker and more purple in cast than, say, the crimson lake of the Midland Railway, but not so dark or brown as the Bachmann colour or the Phoenix Paints shade, which I suspect best represent the post 1910 shade.

 

These two shots of the preserved GW railmotor No. 93 in 1912 lake show the difference lighting conditions make, but nevertheless, is a colour readily distinguishable from the Midland livery.

 

GWR_Steam_Railmotor_93_(7882261160).jpg.ef2a63053db27f0831e803fc91393a1f.jpg.223de33301dc9d53a463ebd64106ff9b.jpg

134299310_GWR_Steam_Railmotor_No_93_At_the_Didcot_Railway_Centre_cropped.jpg.f7c62d50e89c143529e1a63cfcf85994.jpg.5fac952b970238ddee592815677e3ae8.jpg

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Hattons Dave said:

 

 

Thanks for the thorough feedback. We certainly will be taking this into account and updating the liveries accordingly. We will showcase updated colour layouts for them and seek further feedback before proceeding.

 

 

Hi Dave.

Just in case this did not get to you, this is what I posted on the 8th February with regard to the SE & CR livery issue.

 

Posted February 8 (edited)

For clarity lets look at the livery details with specific reference to SE & CR 4 wheeled and 6 wheeled coaches.

 

 On 05/02/2021 at 15:29, phil-b259 said:

On 05/02/2021 at 15:18, wainwright1 said:

Aah yes. The colour that Hattons should paint their SE & CR 4/6 wheelers !

Ray

 

Why?

 

It is a matter of historical FACT that the SECR used TWO different base colours at different times (but keeping the same lining style). One was the more reddish hue seen on the preserved KESR line and Hattons forthcoming models while the other is the more purple looking one as seen on the Bluebells 4 wheelers and Bachmann's 'Birdcage' stock.

 

BOTH are prototypically correct and BOTH can be used with locos ornately lined out in the Wainwright style.

Expand  

 

The point of reference is SE & CR Carriages by Phil Coutanche, with permission of Lightmoor Press.

I have also spoken to some fellow members of the South Eastern and Chatham Railway Society to confirm details.

 

The SE & CR existed as a joint management committee from 1899 to 1923, a total of around 24 years.

To summarise:

The original liveries of the two constituent companies would have continued for a period - Varnished teak for the LC & DR and deep crimson lake for the SER.

After 1899 some coaches were finished with stained and grained upper halves and crimson lake on the lower half. I am advised that there are no known pictures so presumably a relative few. 

From 1901 all coaches painted deep crimson. This would have become uniform across the whole fleet for up to 10 years or more, covering 4 wheeled, 6 wheeled and bogie coaches. I have been told that this was basically a continuation of the SER Crimson.

(As used by Bachmann).

From 1910 it was noted that some coaches were appearing in a lighter shade than previously used. This would probably be restricted to new and front line stock in particular the 60ft stock as produced by Bachmann. Older coaches especially 4 wheelers which were getting on for 40 years old and mostly heading for scrapping, would not likely be repainted, but more probably re-varnished. (Which would in effect make the colour go even darker).

In 1914 the Great War started and there would have been cut-backs in materials including paint and reductions in manpower to apply it. So the application of varnish may have become more the norm to maintain the finish on the coaches when possible.

During 1916 they started painting coaches in a dark umber without lining which continued up until the grouping in 1923.

(As used by Bachmann).

 

I would therefore that assert that the following would be the appropriate for models:

 

                                          Deep Crimson               Lighter Crimson            Dark Umber

4 wheeled coaches                  All                                 Unlikely                       Unlikely

 

6 wheeled coaches                  All                            Very few, if any                    All               

 

Bogie coaches                          All                          New and frontline                 All

 

So to finalise:

Yes the SE & CR did use two shades of crimson paint, but I would definitely say that the lighter livery used for a very few years, which Hattons have chosen and shown on their preproduction models is incorrect for four wheeled and probably six wheeled coaches. Maybe its not too late to correct it ?

 

I am advised by a member that the Bluebell Railway Coach Department painted their coaches to match original Dark Crimson paint samples found on their coach bodies, and it is quite possible that the Lighter Crimson colour that the K&ESR have applied is inappropriate for those particular coaches.

 

Interestingly, there is however scope for Bachmann to do another run of their 60ft stock in the lighter shade of crimson if they are interested. 

 

Ray

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 8 by wainwright1

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