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'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement


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35 minutes ago, Bedders said:

 

I contacted Xerxes the Great about the correct original pronunciation, but he was only interested in debating the merits of P4 vs EM

That's probably becase he wasn't an Egyptian:lol:

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On 29/04/2021 at 22:07, Compound2632 said:

 

Correct and logical.....

 

Quote

... are not characteristics of the English language! (You might be happier communicating in French.)

 

Many on here have a technical background and work or have worked in fields where the correct use of precisely defined terms is essential - as a metrologist I did - which colours our ideas of how language ought to behave. Linguists come to it with a different perspective: language, especially the English language, is in a constant state of flux, as speakers and writers of it find new and occasionally better ways of achieving effective communication. I wince at "train station" but that's the way the language has gone.

 

My whole career having involved dealing directly with the public, it is abundantly clear to me that the standardization and preservation of a correct and logical form of the language is the only way to ensure a reasonably high success rate when one individual is trying to get another to understand correctly and quickly! I have despaired countless times at the numbers of speakers of "English" as their first language who cannot understand a clear, simple, correctly phrased question or instruction, and/or who cannot respond to it meaningfully.

I believe that the attitude that "proper English doesn't matter" and comments such as "the language is in a constant state of flux" just provide excuses and encouragement for those who simply cannot be bothered to learn to speak and write English properly. There is a lot more to learning proper English than simply listening to the the people around you and copying their examples, mistakes and all...

 

I can remember thinking, in my 'teens, that English lessons in school were pretty pointless and something of an insult since we had all learned to speak and write English as an inevitable result of growing up in England. Those many subsequesnt frustrating years of attempting to communicate with poor users of the language totally changed my views.

Edited by gr.king
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Off topic but related - when I worked I had to 'interface' with the public in a written form and I was asked quite often if I could re-write a letter to in effect - 'dumb it down'. My answer was that it was a technical response to a technical question and that was it! Pfffff.

 

On occasion I was also asked if it was possible to re-write a letter of refusal (planning permission related) to which my reply was 'in just how many ways can you say 'no'?'. It's a letter of refusal (prettied up of course)!!

 

You can dumb down but there is a limit!!

 

Back on topic - cler - est - tory for me - even though the Hattons coaches are without.

 

Do you think someone may be tempted to bring out a matching range of bogie coaches?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

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15 minutes ago, gr.king said:

I believe that the attitude that "proper English doesn't matter" and comments such as "the language is in a constant state of flux" just provide excuses and encouragement for those who simply cannot be bothered to learn to speak and write English properly. There is a lot more to learning proper English than simply listening to the the people around you and copying their examples, mistakes and all...

 

I understand where you are coming from but I think that you are confusing two things: poor language learning and evolution of the language. Lexi's career has been in the teaching of English as a foreign language, including a period in a teacher training college in Poland, but for the past quarter-century in the development of dictionaries for learners. A learner of English obviously needs to learn to avoid mistakes - to speak "good English" - but equally needs to understand the language as they will encounter it spoken and written. The language is not fixed; words are constantly undergoing subtle (or not so subtle) shifts in meaning, new words are entering the language, etc. Even new grammatical forms are becoming established, for example the use of "they/theirs" in the singular in place of "he/his" and "she/hers", as a more inclusive form. 

 

It seems to me that as a communicator, one is putting the cart before the horse in assuming that one's auditors have the same linguistic competence as oneself. Surely the first step is to establish what linguistic forms they will understand and build one's communication from that starting point - meeting them where they are at. For example, since you are clearly a person of great fluency in the English language, I had no hesitation there in using the word "auditors", confident that you would not confuse the sense in which I used the word with the sense "a person authorised to review accounts".

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22 minutes ago, Philou said:

Do you think someone may be tempted to bring out a matching range of bogie coaches?

 

It seems to me that, having done all the research work for these non-bogie carriages, this would be an obvious next step for Hattons - and options have been discussed upthread*. But I suppose any planning would have to wait to see how well the non-bogie carriages sell.

 

*A useful neologism.

Edited by Compound2632
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25 minutes ago, Philou said:

 

Do you think someone may be tempted to bring out a matching range of bogie coaches?

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

Maybe Hattons could just bring out some Clerestories based on the current 4 & 6 wheel project?:yes:

 

Then the topic will be back on thread..............:D

 

Seriously some Clerestory roofed (rooved?) versions would add some more variations with little extra work.

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10 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

and options have been discussed upthread

 

Well - yes, sales of the 4/6 wheelers notwithstanding - clerestories or not? Ideally could there be a mix? Perhaps more company related? I understand that there would be tooling issues and I am simply speculating. Having now seen the decorated samples of the 4/6 wheelers, I would really be interested in someGWR/LNWR bogie stock, generic would be quite satisfactory for me.

 

I've just been re-cataloguing my collection of stock for insurance purposes and looking at what I did years ago when my eyesight was better and my hands steadier, quite frankly the painting and lining I did then, leaves a lot to be desired!

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

Edited by Philou
Melmerby replied in-between
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1 minute ago, Philou said:

Well - yes, sales of the 4/6 wheelers notwithstanding - clerestories or not? Ideally could there be a mix?

 

That's the question that got us onto this linguistic distraction! I said:

 

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Simple question - if you pronounce clerestory as cler-es-tory or cler-estory how do you pronounce nonclere?  As both  'clerestory' and 'nonclere' were words in everyday railway use and one was effectively the opposite of the other I would have expected similar pronunciation to apply.

 

As for relying on railwat ymen as a source alwys take great care - I came across plenty of railwaymen who used the term 'fly shunting' when they meant 'loose, or double, shunting. notwithstanding the difference between the terms being in black & white in Rule Etc Books going back long before those misusing the term had been born. 

Edited by The Stationmaster
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@The Stationmaster Fly-shunting - that's what the big hand in the sky does - doesn't it? :)

 

@Compound2632 Sorry about the duplication, though I thought I had read all the items regarding the Hattons coaches - I must have missed or skimmed your comment. Brain of a gnat unfortunately for me ........

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

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3 minutes ago, Philou said:

@Compound2632 Sorry about the duplication, though I thought I had read all the items regarding the Hattons coaches - I must have missed or skimmed your comment. 

 

Not at all. Easily done on this topic (especially when it goes off on a tangent)!

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@The Stationmaster Mmmmm ...... nonclere. Not having seen the word before I WOULD have prononced it as 'non-claire' (without light = dark/sombre). I wonder if clear/clere-storey may have been originally pronounced 'claire' as it seems to have originated from the gothic structures that came from France ...... claire = light.

 

Anyway, back to the coaches ..........................

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12 hours ago, No Decorum said:

Is it time to point out that the Hatton’s coaches are not clerestories?

Never!:jester:

8 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I had done so...

As others have done, frequently.

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

Maybe Hattons could just bring out some Clerestories based on the current 4 & 6 wheel project?:yes:

 

Then the topic will be back on thread..............:D

 

Seriously some Clerestory roofed (rooved?) versions would add some more variations with little extra work.

At Warley 2019 not long after they had been announced I spoke to someone on their stand and I bought the subject of clerestories up and the answer was possibly but some way down the line.

 

Edited by PhilJ W
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34 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Simple question - if you pronounce clerestory as cler-es-tory or cler-estory how do you pronounce nonclere?  As both  'clerestory' and 'nonclere' were words in everyday railway use and one was effectively the opposite of the other I would have expected similar pronunciation to apply.

 

As for relying on railwat ymen as a source alwys take great care - I came across plenty of railwaymen who used the term 'fly shunting' when they meant 'loose, or double, shunting. notwithstanding the difference between the terms being in black & white in Rule Etc Books going back long before those misusing the term had been born. 

First time I've seen that term - I've only come across Nonclère as a French surname.  Such coaches usually seem to described as ellipitical-, round- or arc-roofed.  I follow your logic, but in view of the discussion above, perhaps unclere would be better!

 

In Hitchin we used to have an 08 shunter named ELY, this being a transfer rather than a cast nameplate.  On one side, the bottom of the E had come off (or been removed) so I regularly saw FLY shunting here!

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2 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

First time I've seen that term - I've only come across Nonclère as a French surname.  Such coaches usually seem to described as ellipitical-, round- or arc-roofed.  I follow your logic, but in view of the discussion above, perhaps unclere would be better!

 

In Hitchin we used to have an 08 shunter named ELY, this being a transfer rather than a cast nameplate.  On one side, the bottom of the E had come off (or been removed) so I regularly saw FLY shunting here!

Nonclere was a telegraphic code word but (obviously, I hope) related to clerestory roof coaches.

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5 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

 

At Warley 2019 not long after they had been announced I spoke to someone on their stand and I bought the subject of clerestories up and the answer was possibly but some way down the line.

 

This is one that always gets me, bought vs brought.
When someone says they brought a new loco I want to ask 'how far'?

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50 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

At Warley 2019 not long after they had been announced I spoke to someone on their stand and I brought the subject of clerestories up and the answer was possibly but some way down the line.

 

42 minutes ago, Free At Last said:

This is one that always gets me, bought vs brought.
When someone says they brought a new loco I want to ask 'how far'?

 

Indeed, if @PhilJ W now owns the rights to 00 model clerestory carriages, that presents a commercial hurdle.

 

I find I usually need to pause for thought over principle/principal. I also find it helpful to remember that the elephant is relevant.

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Fly shunting was the usual term for what is properly described as 'loose shunting' in my time at Canton in the 70s.  If you were shunting wagons by pushing them with the loco, cutting off, and stopping or slowing the loco by handsignal, so that the uncoupled wagons continued into the siding you wanted by momentum, this was incorrectly called fly shunting.  The flies were strapped in for safety of course...  Proper fly shunting is different, and usually prohibited for obvious safety reasons.  It involves a loco pulling a wagon, which is uncoupled, then the loco accellerates away and pulls up beyond a set of points which are thrown after the loco passes over but before the wagon reaches it, so that the wagon passes the loco on a different road.  It requires skill, split second timing, and a bit of luck to succeed. and would be next to impossible to model!

 

'Loose coupled' was another term occasionally misused; I used it to describe class 9 freight train, which ran with their instanter couplings in the 'long' position and were speed restricted to 25mph, but it was also used to describe the unfitted portions of trains with the instanters in the short, 'tight' position, '40 on, 15 fitted head, 35 loose coupled'.  Incidentally, I was very firmly instructed that the word describing a brake system that relied on the difference between atmospheric air pressure and no air pressure as 'vac um', never 'vac yew um', use of which was one of the ways in which people who knew nothing about railways could be identified.

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15 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 I was very firmly instructed that the word describing a brake system that relied on the difference between atmospheric air pressure and no air pressure as 'vac um', never 'vac yew um', use of which was one of the ways in which people who knew nothing about railways could be identified.

Vacuum from the Latin vacuus meaning empty.

Now normally pronounced vac-yewm, (especially when refering to cleaners) in UK but should really be and used to be vac-yew-um, as in continuum

 

 

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29 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

'Loose coupled' was another term occasionally misused; I used it to describe class 9 freight train, which ran with their instanter couplings in the 'long' position and were speed restricted to 25mph, but it was also used to describe the unfitted portions of trains with the instanters in the short, 'tight' position, '40 on, 15 fitted head, 35 loose coupled'. 

And I can remember the former class 9 freights and that lovely noise they would make as the couplings snatched when the train began to move.

 

Imagine the near silence of Cardiff station around 1am, a single class 37 at the head of a rake of coal wagons, sat waiting for a signal, purring away.  Signal to green, a growl from the 37 then the echo of each coupling in turn going tight as the train begins to move.

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It is now...

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Imagine the near silence of Cardiff station around 1am, a single class 37 at the head of a rake of coal wagons, sat waiting for a signal, purring away.  Signal to green, a growl from the 37 then the echo of each coupling in turn going tight as the train begins to move.

Imagine the same scene, only with a 56xx, heading with loaded wagons for Barry or Penarth, the loco being heard all the way to Cogan.  And of course some brake levers bouncing in the racks...

 

It used to give me great joy to watch the Radyr men on 37s, though, approaching a red signal at a speed commeasurate with continental drift to avoid having to actually stop and restart the loose coupled wagons, a symphony in driving technique with every coupling taut at 0.0001mph.  Snails could run rings around them!

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