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'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement


Hattons Dave
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1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Don't give up on the Triang clerestories; these just add to the pool. 

 

Oh, I won't.  I have a rake of 6-wheelers and one of 4-wheelers derived from the Triangs in preparation.  My main need is for an earlier style, but I don't see why I can't double up on the Triangs with some of these. It will be fun to repaint these and will save a lot of time!

 

(and justify more passenger locos!)

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9 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

 

They are generic, if you want accuracy you'll still have to source a kit or scratch build.

 

But for me I can now have some 4 & 6 wheel coaches for my bucolic GWR branch.

 

My fear is that this will discourage anyone from entering the RTR market with more accurate, company-specific carriages - which would to a certainty by rather more expensive. Or indeed remove the spur to explore the joys of kit-building.

 

I suppose what I really want is for folk to use their eyes rather than their wallets; to see what a LNWR* carriage looks like and recognise that this isn't it. *Insert company to taste.

 

Plan B would be for some "generic" 19th-century locomotives (Sharp, Stewart, anyone?) to go with these!

 

BTW, will they accept wheelsets set to 21 mm gauge?

 

EDIT: I just looked again at the OP header photo - those two carriages tell you everything you need to know about the "generic" concept!

Edited by Compound2632
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This is a great range from Hattons as everyone needs the odd 4 wheeler lurking around their layout.

 

I wonder why they were announced today, rather than at (say) Warley? Do they have a nice Metro tank or 517 to launch in November :-)

 

Sadly, I doubt that it will do anything for their spat with Bachmann. In some respects that is good as it means Hattons are not going to roll over, but I hope they resolve their differences ASAP.

 

Now then - how many do i need?

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Superb concept Hattons, extremely well done. Just texting with my son, we have already identified the need four different liveries out the first batch alone. One layout in the planing based on this anouncement. Very exciting possibilities. Well done folks, can't wait. 

 

Cheers Grizz and Thor!

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2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

My fear is that this will discourage anyone from entering the RTR market with more accurate, company-specific carriages - which would to a certainty by rather more expensive.

 

I suppose what I really want is for folk to use their eyes rather than their wallets; to see what a LNWR* carriage looks like and recognise that this isn't it. *Insert company to taste.

 

Plan B would be for some "generic" 19th-century locomotives (Sharp, Stewart, anyone?) to go with these!

 

BTW, will they accept wheelsets set to 21 mm gauge?

 

I see the concern, but it's not that anyone was making more specific/accurate 4 or 6-wheelers. 

 

Taking the long view, I think on balance that, by making the earlier periods more accessible, it will lead to more, not fewer releases, and I hope that this will include more prototype-specific coach stock.

 

Do I regret purchasing kits for GE 4-wheelers or GN 6-wheelers?  No, these generic Hattons types don't look anything like any of them, but they do fill a need for many and I can have a lot of fun finding stuff to do with them.

 

I've just planned a 5-coach rake that would fit the west Norfolk, mixing 4 and 6 wheel types. So, I'll be putting in a pre-order.  Once I've got hold of some, I can haul out a bunch o'drawings and see if they can be matched to any real coaches!

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Yes, I accept that they will be ideal for freelancers!

 

What I would say, from many years of peering at photographs of 19th-century trains, is that if one wants to use these carriages in an authentic manner, there really ought to be a full brake in the range. First class passengers of that period travelled with staggering amounts of luggage and the passenger trains were also conveying large amounts of parcels traffic, including small livestock. Every country train needs at least one full brake! 

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This is an interesting announcement. Even for somebody like me who is not really into freelance things and likes to make accurate models as best I can.

 

The problem with building a layout based on the early days of the railways, pre 1923, is the time it takes because you have to build almost everything.

 

Being able to get a representative passenger train up and running quickly will speed a layout project along greatly and there is always the option to replace the train with more accurate stock later.

 

So I am very much in favour and I am even more happy to see GCR livery in the next batch!

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25 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

My fear is that this will discourage anyone from entering the RTR market with more accurate, company-specific carriages - which would to a certainty by rather more expensive. Or indeed remove the spur to explore the joys of kit-building.

 

I suppose what I really want is for folk to use their eyes rather than their wallets; to see what a LNWR* carriage looks like and recognise that this isn't it. *Insert company to taste.

 

Plan B would be for some "generic" 19th-century locomotives (Sharp, Stewart, anyone?) to go with these!

 

BTW, will they accept wheelsets set to 21 mm gauge?

 

EDIT: I just looked again at the OP header photo - those two carriages tell you everything you need to know about the "generic" concept!

I don't think this is a threat to London Road Models and such like, if anything it may be an entry point.

 

You begin with some generic coaches, sparks and interest and next thing you've bought a brass kit to assemble.

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.

 

Wow,  Wow,  WOW  !  !  !

 

(Yes, I know they are generic)

 

The Victorian/Edwardian eras has such scope for scenic modelling (including exceedingly pretty locos)..  When I was young (well "younger") I remember looking at the Langley Miniatures catalogue and thinking that they would make a lovely historic layout, and now I can have another look.

 

AND, the inclusion of the departmental versions will be invaluable for odd sidings on a more up to date layout.  (Although I agree that departmental black would be appreciated  -  BUT  NOTE, the "Batch 3" options include "Further BR Departmental Examples".)

 

Thanks Hatton.

 

.

Edited by phil gollin
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12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

What I would say, from many years of peering at photographs of 19th-century trains, is that if one wants to use these carriages in an authentic manner, there really ought to be a full brake in the range. First class passengers of that period travelled with staggering amounts of luggage and the passenger trains were also conveying large amounts of parcels traffic, including small livestock. Every country train needs at least one full brake! 


I have to agree, a full-brake would be very much appreciated. As an example of an LBSCR set train, set no. 42 consisted of:

6-wheel full brake
4-wheel (5-compartment) third
6-wheel (4-compartment) second
6-wheel (4-compartment) first
4-wheel (5-compartment) third
6-wheel full brake. 

1/3 of the vehicles were luggage/parcels space, with one van to every 10 compartments! And this on a train allocated to a sleepy backwater line (the Cranleigh line, Guildford-Horsham).

With that being said, even if these are generic, they'll be a lot closer to prototypical Victorian/Edwardian rolling stock than that Hornby 4-wheeler ever was, and should look a lot less out of place! Well done, Hattons!

Edited by Skinnylinny
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1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

 

I was thinking much the same when I saw the e-mail from Hattons. Most would be passable for many pre-group railways as most had similar panelling. Two of the chosen railways I suspect would not be suitable to those knowledgeable about their chosen line. The GNR coaches had a very distinctive square cornered paneling as carried on by the LNER and the LNWR had a style all of its own.

 

More noticeably, perhaps is that GNR coaches had a very different roof profile - as did the SER for example ( with a rather LNWR style of panelling as it happens.).

 

It'll be interesting to see what, if any, windows Hattons put in the brake ends - another distinctive feature of many railways.

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.

 

Just in case people haven't seen this (it was on the Hattons Genesis Project Update page ;

 

"Batch 3 Information

 

We will be producing a third batch of coaches which will be available following on from the release of the first two batches but are not currently available to pre-order. Currently proposed liveries are:

 

North Eastern Railway

Caledonian Railway

Metropolitan Railway

SDJR

Longmoor Military Railway

Further BR Departmental Examples"

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/newsdetail.aspx?id=594

 

.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

1/3 of the vehicles were luggage/parcels space, with one van to every 10 compartments! And this on a train allocated to a sleepy backwater line (the Cranleigh line, Guildford-Horsham).

 

On a rural line the extra van space was probably for milk churns. 

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I was a little apprehensive when I first skimmed the announcement, but they make more sense the more I think about it. As gorgeous as Hornbys LSWR coaches, and Bachmanns SECR coaches are, I will never touch them with a barge pole, they don't fit anything I model and I couldn't bash them into LNWR or Midland vehicles so I'll never waste a penny on them (the H&B pre-group coaches). These models from Hattons however don't fit a specific hole, which makes them perfect for a bit of manipulation; particularly for industrial uses. I see some paddy train stock!

 

With a bit of luck, they might just provide some impetus for further (accurate) pre-grouping RTR models to appear, and that can only be a good thing. And if you think about it, these could have potential to show what pre-grouping railways actually generate real world sales rather than wishlist items.

 

Not for the purist at all, but a handy barometer for an as yet relatively untapped area of the hobby for anyone but those willing to build kits.

Edited by Zunnan
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2 minutes ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

 

On a rural line the extra van space was probably for milk churns. 

 

Yes, and for all sorts of other stuff - high value or perishable. In some ways with the rise of internet shopping we're returning to a 19th-century way of shopping - making much less use of the physical shop - or treating it as a showroom - and getting our stuff delivered to us at home. The railway and the GPO made that possible.

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14 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

@Hattons Dave Based on your approach to these coaches could a full brake be considered in batch three?

 

Hi woodenhead, due to the modular nature of this project we could certainly look into producing a full brake if there's enough demand.

 

16 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

Finally something to replace those old Hornby 4 wheelers!

 

The individual coaches go through a big verity  of numbers however what the numbers for those in the packs of 4 please?

 

Hi JSpencer, I couldn't quite fit the running numbers in the titles for the coach packs but I've got them confirmed for Batch 1. I'll make sure to add them to the product descriptions. They are:

 

GWR - 205, 75, 148, 358
GNR - 75, 2546, 106, 1582
LNWR - 7195, 4009, 7076, 781
SECR - 3052, 2959, 6564, 2021
LMS - 5002, 5504, 7096, 9537
LNER - 42012, 4012, 4013, 402
SR - 3570, 5780, 3655, 1713

 

I hope this helps.

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31 minutes ago, Hattons Dave said:

 

Hi Stephen,

 

I've got some answers for you regarding the key dimensions.

 

4 wheel

Body length - 105.2mm

Body width (over body, not handles) - 31.9mm

Wheelbase - 60mm

 

6 wheel

Body length - 129.2mm

Body width (over body, not handles) - 31.9 mm

Wheelbase - 42mm centres

 

In regards to accepting 21mm wheelsets, it may well be possible but with the 6 wheelers especially it wouldn't give much room left to play with to negotiate curves.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Thank-you for this - very encouraging dimensions, I would say. Apologies if I've been a bit obnoxious. 8 ft wide is spot on. I hope I may be excused a couple of observations in the hope that these carriages can be made even more "typical":

  • Compartment widths - from the elevations shown, there doesn't seem to be any evident difference in compartment widths in those carriages intended to be composites, and no consistency between the presumed third-class compartments in the five-compartment 6-wheel third and 6-wheel brake third. 
  • 6-wheel carriages - I think that brakes on the centre wheels were not the norm. On the real thing, just as on a model, some flexibility was needed on the centre axle to give a smooth ride round curves, typically through increased sideplay. (More complex solutions such as radial axles and the Cleminson arrangement were rather unusual.) Omitting these brakes would probably simplify making a reliable model as well as being more realistic.
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