'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[JohnR]

Perhaps the discussion of LNER coach painting policy could be moved to its own thread?

[Headstock]

1 minute ago, Bernard Lamb said:

Cost?

These are being built down to a target price.Show Reply

Berbard

 

Fair point, but the GNR versions are in teak, arn't they?

[57xx]

 

[Joseph the L&YR lover]

1 hour ago, chris p bacon said:

 

There are some who have posted to make them a better product,  but are unlikely to buy them. Should they not offer any help or advice ?

most who have given help and advice are planing on getting some. the ones grumbling about it aren't being very helpfully although i'm sure they will change there minds in a year or so.

[truffy]

 

1 hour ago, chris p bacon said:

There are some who have posted to make them a better product,  but are unlikely to buy them. Should they not offer any help or advice ?

Offering help and advice is one thing, belligerent arguments over how many angels can dance on a pin head aren’t. 
 

Leaving aside the question of how typical a generic can be (and, yes, I am aware of the dictionary definitions), advocating one form over others seems to be missing the point. 

Edited October 24, 2019 by truffy

[Ravenser]

53 minutes ago, Headstock said:

These GN six wheelers were never repainted into plain brown. They retained real teak throughout there lives. They received there original (close to original) branding to run with the Stirling single  and are pictured here1937  [my added emphasis] in somewhat weathered but welll varnished teak.

 

https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/133-teak-coaches

 

sorry, the link dosn't seem to work propely so I have had to inbed

 

 

One of my concerns is your visible inaccuracy of citation when the material you are quoting is in front of me

 

My recollection was that the press publicity trip with restored GN coaches and Stirling Single out and new LNER  stock back was 1938 - 50 years on from the Race to the North.

 

And I was right - here is Steve Bank's text from the website you are citing for this very photo:

 

Quote

In 1938  [my added emphasis] when the new "Flying Scotsman" train sets were launched, the press was taken out by ex-GNR No 1 and a set of reconditioned 6w ECJS and GNR carriages, returning in the new train. This picture taken at Hitchin shows rather well is how dark teak panelling could get, as well as the usual chequer-board pattern. CCQ, author's collection.

 

 

Edited October 24, 2019 by Ravenser

[RichardLong]

7 hours ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

Ah, electric roof furniture...

 

 

bit disappointed there are no air braked 4 wheelers though.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's a shame the SR ones aren't air-braked for IOW usage.

 

That said, I appreciate they aren't aimed solely at IOW usage and vacuum brakes are probably a better choice for a generic SR four-wheeler.  It's not something that would stop me buying them and (if I'm honest) I probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference anyway.

[Headstock]

6 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

One of my concerns is your visible inaccuracy of citation when the material you are quoting is in front of me

 

My recollection was that the press publicity trip with restored GN coaches and Stirling Single out and new LNER  stock back was 1938 - 50 years on from the Race to the North.

 

And I was right - here is Steve Bank's text from the website you are citing for this very photo:

 

 

 

 

I know Steve quite well, enough that he would not object to using his photo to disprove false information. Especially as a technical glitch prevented the proper link from working.

Whatever spin you want to put on it, the fact of the matter is that you are wrong I'm afraid. The carriages in the photo are teak and they were never painted brown.

[Compound2632]

10 hours ago, Hattons Dave said:

Morning all,

 

There has been some discussion regarding the various differences in roof furniture, wheels and braking equipment so I've put together a detail matrix for the liveries included in Batch 1.

 

 

I hope this helps.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

 

 

2 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

Northern Scottish Area - 301 x 6-wheelers and 24 x 4-wheelers. 112 6-wheelers and 23 four-wheelers still oil-lit

 

( Harris, Chapter 3 , p27-8)

 

 

Lighting is another can of worms. I'm not very well up on the post-Grouping period, especially the LNER where as @Ravenser has shown, there were still many 6-wheelers and even 4-wheelers in service into the 1930s. It would be interesting to know if there is any evidence for large-scale conversion of 6-wheel carriages from gas to electric lighting. The fact that there were still oil-lit carriages on the ex-GNoSR section but that no other comment is made on lighting leads me to suspect that the implication is that other stock was still gas lit.

 

The LMS had gas-lit pre-grouping gangwayed bogie carriages in use on Midland Division expresses in the late 20s, as is evidenced by the Charfield accident.

 

Likewise wheels. I'm sceptical that there would have been any large-scale programme of replacement of Mansell wheelsets on such elderly carriages, given that these were being used under new carriages in the early 20s. (Drawing of 6-wheel bogie for M&GSW Joint Stock dining carriage, 1920, from Railway Engineer, reproduced in D. Jenkinson, Midland Carriages (OPC, 1984).) Here's a photo of a wheel-turning lathe in the Derby carriage & wagon works, 5 August 1921:

 

 

NRM DY 12255, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

 

Oil lamps were certainly in use on the Great Western:

 

In the third-class seat sat

The journeying boy.

And the roof-lamp’s oily flame

Played down on his listless form and face,

Bewrapt past knowing to what he was going,

Or whence he came.

 

Thomas Hardy, Midnight on the Great Western

 

But as ever with Hardy, he's difficult evidence as he's typically writing about how things were a generation or more before his own time. By the early years of the 20th century, gas lighting seems to have been fitted to Great Western 6-wheelers of all vintages, judging by this photo at Leamington, 1903.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Compound2632

[Ravenser]

39 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

I know Steve quite well, enough that he would not object to using his photo to disprove false information. Especially as a technical glitch prevented the proper link from working.

Whatever spin you want to put on it, the fact of the matter is that you are wrong I'm afraid. The carriages in the photo are teak and they were never painted brown.

 

For the record, I never stated that the ex GN coaches used for the 1938 press run were painted brown. Indeed I said earlier that anything which was teak at Grouping - as GN coaches were - would in principle stay teak as long as the teak could be revived. 

 

The question was what would happen to elderly coaches that were inherited in 1923 with a coat of paint ie GE , NER, NBR (and query vintage GC stock)

 

And it is worth noting that the look of those vintage GN teaks is quite different from your colour shot of what I take to be an ex NER inspection saloon (I think it looks very like the preserved NER saloon shown on Paul Bartlett's site) - which looks uncommonly like pretty grubby plain brown

 

My point was simply that you had scrambled the date of the press run when it was in front of your eyes in the material you were using from Steve Banks, just as you scrambled what I originally said about the use of "faux teak" , accusing me of making claims I quite clearly hadn't. At that point how can I be sure you aren't equally scrambling and misreporting what you say you've deduced from primary sources??

 

From your earlier post

 

Quote

. What source material are you quoting, were are you getting your information from? Harris? Not even first hand material. My advice is go look at the genuine material. There are even vintage carriages, that when the paint has been stripped back, a layer of painted teak has been revealed.

 

You have dismissed Michael Harris' LNER Coaches as of no value since it is a secondary source, but I'm afraid at this point I trust the accuracy of his reporting of the primary sources far more than I trust your accuracy in reporting them. (And I didn't even cite him as a source for livery , merely as a source for the sheer number of 4 and 6 wheelers still in LNER service in the mid 1930s)

 

as far as vintage carriages carrying painted teak , you seem to be reporting the LNER forum thread, and the tally there is :

 

- a Thompson BZ at Wakes Colne - this is a post-war steel vehicle, so irrelevant to us

- a GE 6 wheeler from Halstead , which Nick Campling reports as having a layer of "teak paint" when he scraped it back in the 1980s. However it is not at all clear he would have scraped back a large enough area to reveal any graining. This may just be "LNER brown"

- a photo of an ex GER 6 wheeler at Mangapps Farm sold to a farmer in 1930. This appears to me to have been stripped back to the underlying LNER paintwork, (I very much doubt this painted surface was exposed to the East Anglian weather for 50 years - it must have been overpainted) . This is at least genuine 1920s LNER paintwork, and some of it has an orangy look but I'm not clear that any colour variation is original and not simply the result of stripping back by the restorers. It doesn't look grained to me, or like the photo of the NER birdcage brake

Edited October 24, 2019 by Ravenser

[57xx]

F*ck me, someone's paid their £8....

[Dunsignalling]

3 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

I was just curious to why teak hadn't been selected for the LNER version. Its a perfectly valid question and a perfectly valid livery both as real or painted teak. Admittedly, I find it amusing that, painted teak or phoney teak would perhaps be the most appropriate livery of all. There's nothing wrong with that is there?

 

I'd suggest that's self-evident if one compares the prices of Hornby teak-finish Gresleys with those of the same models in BR colours.

 

I understand that those (or at least the ones that didn't look dreadful) required several extra passes through the printer in order to build up the effect. Quite apart from the additional cost of doing so, that can also be expected to increase the reject rate.

 

John 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Likewise wheels. I'm sceptical that there would have been any large-scale programme of replacement of Mansell wheelsets on such elderly carriages, given that these were being used under new carriages in the early 20s. (Drawing of 6-wheel bogie for M&GSW Joint Stock dining carriage, 1920, from Railway Engineer, reproduced in D. Jenkinson, Midland Carriages (OPC, 1984).) Here's a photo of a wheel-turning lathe in the Derby carriage & wagon works, 5 August 1921:

 

According to David Jenkinson Mansell wheels were still being used for some new carriages in the late '30s and BR passed them for 70mph use as late as 1979.

He also states that in the 1930s the LNER had a higher proportion of ancient carriages than any of it's rivals with 50% of the remaining 4 & 6 wheelers.

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

 

For the record, I never stated that the ex GN coaches used for the 1938 press run were painted brown. Indeed I said earlier that anything which was teak at Grouping - as GN coaches were - would in principle stay teak as long as the teak could be revived. 

 

The question was what would happen to elderly coaches that were inherited in 1923 with a coat of paint ie GE , NER, NBR (and query vintage GC stock)

 

And it is worth noting that the look of those vintage GN teaks is quite different from your colour shot of what I take to be an ex NER inspection saloon (I think it looks very like the preserved NER saloon shown on Paul Bartlett's site) - which looks uncommonly like pretty grubby plain brown

 

My point was simply that you had scrambled the date of the press run when it was in front of your eyes in the material you were using from Steve Banks, just as you scrambled what I originally said about the use of "faux teak" , accusing me of making claims I quite clearly hadn't. At that point how can I be sure you aren't equally scrambling and misreporting what you say you've deduced from primary sources??

 

From your earlier post

 

 

You have dismissed Michael Harris' LNER Coaches as of no value since it is a secondary source, but I'm afraid at this point I trust the accuracy of his reporting of the primary sources far more than I trust your accuracy in reporting them. (And I didn't even cite him as a source for livery , merely as a source for the sheer number of 4 and 6 wheelers still in LNER service in the mid 1930s)

 

as far as vintage carriages carrying painted teak , you seem to be reporting the LNER forum thread, and the tally there is :

 

- a Thompson BZ at Wakes Colne - this is a post-war steel vehicle, so irrelevant to us

- a GE 6 wheeler from Halstead , which Nick Campling reports as having a layer of "teak paint" when he scraped it back in the 1980s. However it is not at all clear he would have scraped back a large enough area to reveal any graining. This may just be "LNER brown"

- a photo of an ex GER 6 wheeler at Mangapps Farm sold to a farmer in 1930. This appears to me to have been stripped back to the underlying LNER paintwork, (I very much doubt this painted surface was exposed to the East Anglian weather for 50 years - it must have been overpainted) . This is at least genuine 1920s LNER paintwork, and some of it has an orangy look but I'm not clear that any colour variation is original and not simply the result of stripping back by the restorers. It doesn't look grained to me, or like the photo of the NER birdcage brake

 

I don't need to look at a thread, I've spoken to people and seen things with my own eyes and come to my own conclusions. I'm not dismissing Harris but there are mistakes in Harris. Second hand research alone is not good enough. You need to get out and look at stuff yourself whether it be documents or physical objects.

 

For example, I quote from your original post,

 

''The LNER were in the habit of painting elderly stock in plain brown once the teak was past it. Not "faux teak" - which was reserved for  new steel stock like the 1935 steel articulateds or the Thompson stock''.

The above is not correct is it. So called 'faux teak' was not reserved for new steel stock............... 1935.......articulateds.......Thompson..........

 

''it was only ECJS stock that was teak. Consequently ordinary NER coaches would all go into brown''

Same again. Not true, It was not just ECJS stock that was teak, what about GNR carriages for example?
Also not true, the LNER did paint ordinary NER carriages in so called 'faux teak'.

 

You are not changing anything by typing away about research material. You are still wrong.

[Fishoutofwater]

10 hours ago, Hattons Dave said:

Morning all,

 

There has been some discussion regarding the various differences in roof furniture, wheels and braking equipment so I've put together a detail matrix for the liveries included in Batch 1.

 

 

I hope this helps.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

 

I read somewhere that the SER and LCDR (constituents of the SECR) were both air-braked railways.

(That is the main reason why the Isle of Wight received their cast-offs.)

[Ravenser]

28 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

I don't need to look at a thread, I've spoken to people and seen things with my own eyes and come to my own conclusions. I'm not dismissing Harris but there are mistakes in Harris. Second hand research alone is not good enough. You need to get out and look at stuff yourself whether it be documents or physical objects.

 

....

 

''it was only ECJS stock that was teak. Consequently ordinary NER coaches would all go into brown''

Same again. Not true, It was not just ECJS stock that was teak, what about GNR carriages for example?
Also not true, the LNER did paint ordinary NER carriages in so called 'faux teak'.

 

You are not changing anything by typing away about research material. You are still wrong.

 

Within the NER prior to 1923, only ECJS was in teak . Other NER coaching stock was red. Why read GNR vehicles into a comment about NER coaching stock??

 

Quote

I've spoken to people and seen things with my own eyes and come to my own conclusions

 

If you have a TARDIS that will take you back to the pre-war LNER , good luck. Otherwise - I'm afraid I can't accept any statement on your  authority when you demonstrably misread , misunderstand and misquote what's in front of your eyes. 

 

In the meantime, as some more practical information I have another GE branch with 6-wheelers in the inter war period . Thaxted used five converted 6 wheelers from opening in 1913 until the last two were disposed of in February 1948 . These were brake thirds and open thirds , to dia 612 and 613. One of each survived in service stock at Norwich (third) and Cambridge (brake) until 1964. Diagrams are provided in The Thaxted Branch, Peter Paye , (OPC Oxford 1984). These were 34'6" vehicles built in 1891with a 21' wheelbase. On conversion they received 2'9" diameter wheels, replacing 3'6 wheel, and the buffers were raised to compensate (the Thaxted line had low cinder platforms)  Again there are no livery details on the diagrams (p115-6) On p114 are two decent photos - livery is a uniform colour, visibly quite a bit lighter than the presumably black J69 present in one photo. There is no sign of colour variation, or graining. Further pre-war photos on p42 and p72 likewise show a plain livery with no sign of graining

 

We start to see, I think, what the LNER mean by "third-rate branch lines"

 

Given that both the GC and GN Sections had much more 6 wheel stock left in 1934 than the GE did, some examples from those areas might be interesting if anyone has them.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2019 by Ravenser

[Headstock]

31 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

Within the NER prior to 1923, only ECJS was in teak . Other NER coaching stock was red. Why read GNR vehicles into a comment about NER coaching stock??

 

 

 

That is not what you said, otherwise why would you refer NER carriages going brown if you were talking prior to 1923?  I'm afraid I can't accept any statement on your  authority when you demonstrably mislead.............

[Headstock]

47 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

If you have a TARDIS that will take you back to the pre-war LNER

 

 

Sounds a bit like peeling paint off.

[Wickham Green]

9 hours ago, Fishoutofwater said:

 

I read somewhere that the SER and LCDR (constituents of the SECR) were both air-braked railways.

(That is the main reason why the Isle of Wight received their cast-offs.)

Nope ! - LCDR & LBSCR were the Westinghouse lines ........ you'd not have found any SER cast-offs in the Island - most of them went to make electric sets ( or Dungeness bungalows ).

[Nick C]

7 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

Nope ! - LCDR & LBSCR were the Westinghouse lines ........ you'd not have found any SER cast-offs in the Island - most of them went to make electric sets ( or Dungeness bungalows ).

Agreed - the SER was vacuum, so the SECR had a curious mix...

 

From what I understand, the LCDR made their coaches from much better quality timber than many of their contemporaries, which is why they tended to last a lot longer than the SER or LBSCR 4-wheelers did. Some of the IOW LCDR 4-wheelers lasted into the fifties (long enough, certainly, to get painted in malachite) being used as parcels/luggage stock, before being replaced with standard SR PMVs.

[HonestTom]

If Hattons want to do LNER teak on later batches, they can. Problem solved!

[Ravenser]

11 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

That is not what you said, otherwise why would you refer NER carriages going brown if you were talking prior to 1923?  I'm afraid I can't accept any statement on your  authority when you demonstrably mislead.............

 

Actually I was quite clear I was talking about ex NER stock: here's the original quote:

 

Quote

The LNER were in the habit of painting elderly stock in plain brown once the teak was past it. ........NER coach livery  was red - NER 4 wheel coach  : it was only ECJS stock that was teak. Consequently ordinary NER coaches would all go into brown  (any reference for the claim that NER coaches were repainted from red into "Faux teak", not LNER brown?). 

 

How you got ex GNR stock into that statement, much less any claim that ex GNR varnished teaks were all repainted in brown paint by the LNER , beats me... 

 

You have produced one photo of an ex NER bogie birdcage brake in  light "faux teak", presumably pre-war, and one postwar colour photo of an ? ex NER inspection saloon ? , date and place  unknown, which you say is "faux teak" , but which looks indistinguishable from a pretty grubby overall brown - and which also looks quite unlike 1930s colour photos of varnished teak (including the 1938 vintage GN set)

 

In the meantime, I omitted to mention that the GER 6 wheeled coaches used on the Thaxted line had the "round top/square bottom" window corners, so would not be well represented by the Hattons vehicles , as well as being 34'6" long

 

But the details of the conversion - 6 wheeled compartment stock rebuilt to opens, with intermediate doors sealed and steps fitted below end doors to allow passengers to reach low cinder platforms - may be of much wider interest to those modelling light railways . Apparently similar coaches were used on the Kelvedon to Tollesbury light railway. 

 

It would be useful to have some references for the GC Section and GN Section or the LNER Scottish Area (or indeed somewhere other than the GE in Essex...)  as they clearly had much more 6 wheel stock left in 1934 than the GE.

 

So far I've found a couple of photos of Immingham Dock/New Holland trains in the early 1930s showing 6 wheelers, but that's all I have for GC / GN 

 

Some pages back we were more or less establishing that there are 4 different scenarios where these Hattons coaches are concerned:

 

- Very clearly different (LNWR, GNR stock)

- Some distance off (NLR, older GE vehicles at 34'6" with "arched windows" )

- Some differences , but potentially representational (later GE stock at 32' with round cornered windows, GE suburban 4 wheelers?  MSLR stock, NBR stock , possibly ex LCDR 6 wheelers and ? SER coaches? some GW 4 wheel stock?)

- Close match : LBSCR 4 and 6 wheelers , some MR 6 wheeled stock, some Cambrian 4 wheelers, ?some NER stock?)

Edited October 25, 2019 by Ravenser

[Oldddudders]

Deuce. New balls please. 

[Legend]

We take life far too seriously . I get that if you model the LN&WR, GER, GNR etc , these coaches probably mean you will never get models of coaches specific to your interest. But then I think you have to ask yourself, how likely was that anyway, and from my point of view it probably wasn’t a commercial proposition and therefore not very likely .  So I can’t see these coaches causing any damage .   On the other hand if you are just in the market for a pretty rake of 4 and 6 wheelers to run behind your Stirling Single , L&Y 2-4-2T etc etc then your wish has just been granted. And I rather think there are much more of us in this latter category that haven’t a clue about the nuances of these coaches and are happy to accept something that looks the part. 

[Clive Mortimore]

3 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

Nope ! - LCDR & LBSCR were the Westinghouse lines ........ you'd not have found any SER cast-offs in the Island - most of them went to make electric sets ( or Dungeness bungalows ).

I do hope the paneling on these generic coaches is close enough to be able to make a 3 SUB .