'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

[Compound2632]

... and it's well known that a couple of Improved Precedents could pull a Saint backwards.

[Craigw]

15 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

If Hattons offered these carriages in the claret livery, the situation might be seen as getting a bit easier but who wants to model claret-era Great Western? Surely the Great Western's biggest selling point to modellers has to be those chocolate and cream carriages? 

 

I model early 1920s GWR because I like coaches in the lake livery and plain green locos. Something different from what you usually see. Throw in 25" and 16" lettering on goods wagons, as well as a good collection of older locos and you have a very interesting period. Oh yes, 4 and 6 wheel coaches too!

 

Craig Warton

[Miss Prism]

22 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I don't know to what extent the Dean Goods was used on secondary passenger work at that time.

 

Rarely. (And they looked rather different in those days compared to what Oxford provides.)

 

Here's something suitable:

 

[johnarcher]

2 hours ago, uax6 said:

The underframe for LNWR vehicles in particular is very distinctive and therefore I wonder how popular conversion sides would be.

But then again who would buy them? Most comments on here have said that they can't paint and line pre-grouping liveries, so unless the replacement sides were pre-painted and ready to stick on, I can't see the point (but of course for small runs this is going to cost a fortune, and will be totally uneconomic).

Again those that can (or are prepared to try) and care enough about things actually being right, will continue to buy kits.

 

Sadly I think sides might be a non-starter...

 

Andy G

Actually I agree with you, I only had that thought because people were talking about these maybe being used as a basis for conversion.

Really is chopping up, re-assembling neatly and repainting one of these that much easier than assembling a coach kit?

 

[gr.king]

It could be. Time will tell. Much depends on the way they are turned out.

[HonestTom]

1 hour ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Perhaps what would be needed for replacing sides on these generic models, while overcoming the painting and lining deterrent, are pre-printed overlays on acetate as supplied in the  old range of PC kits.

 

Even then, I think that most owners of RTR pre-group locos would be satisfied with an "inaccurate" coach but in the correct livery, as Hattons propose.

 

I'd be inclined to agree. Obviously it varies from person to person, but I'd say that a badly liveried model would stick out more to me than a well-liveried, well-put-together but not quite accurate coach, especially in the case of a more elaborate livery. If some enterprising soul wanted to make more accurate coach sides, then good luck to them, but I know I for one wouldn't be a customer. I don't mean that to sound snotty, but I know my limits when it comes to painting (my pre-grouping modelling is presently limited to goods stock - in-service wagons are a lot more forgiving to the ham-handed painter).

[PMP]

14 hours ago, Craigw said:

 Now we have talk of people doing cut and shuts on them and using donor sides to make something else, creating the very issues that pushed the case for them. Seems to me more than a little contradictory. 

 

I simply cannot imagine someone taking the time and effort to produce a range of sides as being viable and I cannot see many people cutting the sides out of a 30 GBP plus model to fit alternate sides to them.

 

Craig W

No contradiction in my eyes, it’s a very small number of people suggesting this approach. I see it as no different to taking a RTR locomotive and modifying it with detail components or a new etched chassis. It’s the same mindset, and a small section of the overall market, most of these coaches will be run as sold.

 

I can see Jol’s point that it’s unlikely to work for London Road or similar companies, however there’s plenty of modellers out there doing etches for themselves or small groups of friends. If there are aftermarket sides to come, that’s the source from where they’ll likely come to market.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Hattons are offering these carriages in fully-lined-out chocolate and cream, i.e. the livery applied up to c. 1908. I'm not convinced that the market for pre-Great War Great Western is any greater than the market for pre-Grouping LNWR.

 

What Great Western RTR locomotives are available for the pre-Great War period? From the Hattons website, selecting Era 2 steam locomotives: Bachmann City, Hornby ex-Triang Achilles, Oxford Dean Goods; to which one could add the Hornby County and 28xx. I'm not sure that all those are currently available in the appropriate condition and livery, if they ever have been. Three of those were in that period front-line express passenger locomotives and one a heavy freight locomotive, for which 4 and 6-wheeled carriages are not exactly the most appropriate rolling stock. I don't know to what extent the Dean Goods was used on secondary passenger work at that time.

 

If Hattons offered these carriages in the claret livery, the situation might be seen as getting a bit easier but who wants to model claret-era Great Western? Surely the Great Western's biggest selling point to modellers has to be those chocolate and cream carriages? 

Don't overlook the fact that 6 wheel stock was in regular use in quitte a number of non-branchline trains until the Great War and in fact it remained usab;e on interchange (between Companies) trains until after that war (originally it had been planned to ban it in interchange use c.1914/5 but that change was deferred due to the war. It took me now more than a few minutes to find a photo dated as 1913 of a mainline stopping train headed by a 'Saint' which included a couple of six-wheelers in the formation

 

The bigger question with GWR r-t-r locos is just how many of them are actually in relatively early condition suitable for, say, pre 1914 running.

[Edwardian]

5 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

The bigger question with GWR r-t-r locos is just how many of them are actually in relatively early condition suitable for, say, pre 1914 running.

 

Well, aside from the old Triang Lord of the Isles, none that I can think of.

 

The Bachmann City is physically the as preserved Truro condition, though I reckon without too much work you could get one back to c.1911.

 

One relatively recent release ostensibly represented a 1913-4 condition loco, but so very badly that the least said about that the better. 

 

 

(I may have mentioned the Dean Goods, but I think I got away with it)

[Oldddudders]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 a couple of Improved Precedents could pull a Saint backwards.

Important point on All-Saints Day!

[Hal Nail]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Improved Precedents.

Is that what Trump calls himself?

[wombatofludham]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Hattons are offering these carriages in fully-lined-out chocolate and cream, i.e. the livery applied up to c. 1908. I'm not convinced that the market for pre-Great War Great Western is any greater than the market for pre-Grouping LNWR.

 

What Great Western RTR locomotives are available for the pre-Great War period? From the Hattons website, selecting Era 2 steam locomotives: Bachmann City, Hornby ex-Triang Achilles, Oxford Dean Goods; to which one could add the Hornby County and 28xx. I'm not sure that all those are currently available in the appropriate condition and livery, if they ever have been. Three of those were in that period front-line express passenger locomotives and one a heavy freight locomotive, for which 4 and 6-wheeled carriages are not exactly the most appropriate rolling stock. I don't know to what extent the Dean Goods was used on secondary passenger work at that time.

 

If Hattons offered these carriages in the claret livery, the situation might be seen as getting a bit easier but who wants to model claret-era Great Western? Surely the Great Western's biggest selling point to modellers has to be those chocolate and cream carriages? 

 

5 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Rarely. (And they looked rather different in those days compared to what Oxford provides.)

 

 

There are quite a few photos published of Dean Goods on passenger trains on the Cambrian and Ruabon-Barmouth lines in the 1920s and 30s, including some ex-Cambrian six wheelers in the formation albeit in the slightly simpler post WW1 carriage livery, although I haven't seen any photographic evidence of Dean Goods on passenger trains on the Dolgellau line from the days of the joint GWR/Cambrian operation of Dolgellau as photos of the operations of the station prior to the amalgamation are fairly rare.  

However, a set of Hatton's six wheelers with lighting behind an Oxford fully lined "Angry Caterpillar" Dean Goods may well be finding a place on the Dolgellau layout for two reasons, firstly it'll annoy the man-boobs off the rivet counters, and I really enjoy doing that, and secondly the general public will love it and will hopefully give us a bigger donation.  The grockles will think it's an elegant Edwardian train rather than a Welsh myth.

Plus it'll look lovely alongside our current early 20th Century demonstration local of a rake of professionally painted Ratio four wheelers in WW1 era livery behind a kit built ex-Cambrian Sharp Stewart 2-4-0 tank engine.  Which is painted in mid-30s GWR livery.

 

I bet that's set off the OCD in a few GWR fans.

Edited November 1, 2019 by wombatofludham

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

I bet that's set off the OCD in a few GWR fans.

 

Don't worry about me - I'm a Midland man.

[wombatofludham]

Just now, Compound2632 said:

 

Don't worry about me - I'm a Midland man.

 

I'm LMS/LNWR/AC electrics so I'm also immune.  If that mystery Precedent was a leak by Hattons and it gets announced soon there will be a LNWR Precedent and Hattons pseudo-LNWR rake also appearing at Dolgellau as a pre WW1 "Rule 1" backdating of the much later "North Wales Scenic Tour" train which regularly brought proper non-GWR traction to the line running circular tours from Rhyl to the coast via Corwen and Afon Wen in BR days.  I'm not proud.  

Before I do that though I think I'd better have the local First Responders and their defibrillator on speed dial, just in case.

[Nick Holliday]

On 29/10/2019 at 21:23, Ravenser said:

 

Curious - which is the company involved?

i've deliberately kept quiet on this, just to see whether those who give the impression they can identify a rogue carriage at twenty paces with the lights off know the answer.

Just to give a clue, I've found some more drawings, from another railway company, that fit the bill.

The clue is that the two companies could not be much further apart in size or location. Any suggestions?

As an aside, this thread shows what a generic third might look like. Identification was relatively easy because there are few etched kits of this type available, so the choice was limited.

BTW - Would anybody notice that the body is actually a 30' one?

[Hitchin Junction]

It seems that to make everyone happy, RTR model businesses should produce models that are absolutely accurate models of something, but only claim and advertise them as generic.

 

Tim

[PhilJ W]

When it comes to locomotives to pull these coaches aren't you forgetting the J15? A locomotive introduced at the end of the Victorian era and was still hauling trains consisting of four and six wheelers into the BR era.

[phil gollin]

6 hours ago, Hitchin Junction said:

It seems that to make everyone happy, RTR model businesses should produce models that are absolutely accurate models of something, but only claim and advertise them as generic.

 

Tim

.  

 

Worst possible case  -  as soon as someone identifies them as dead ringers for XYZ company, most people will drop them.

 

.

[Hitchin Junction]

35 minutes ago, phil gollin said:

.  

 

Worst possible case  -  as soon as someone identifies them as dead ringers for XYZ company, most people will drop them.

 

.

 

By that "logic", if Hornby and Bachmann suddenly switched to magical remote auto working realistic screw couplings, their sales would stop?

 

 

[Craigw]

14 minutes ago, Hitchin Junction said:

 

By that "logic", if Hornby and Bachmann suddenly switched to magical remote auto working realistic screw couplings, their sales would stop?

 

 

 

 

If they based them on GWR screw couplings then yes. But if they make a screw link centre with a 3 link chain at either end that will be fine because you can paint it in any livery then.

 

 

[PatB]

3 hours ago, phil gollin said:

.  

 

Worst possible case  -  as soon as someone identifies them as dead ringers for XYZ company, most people will drop them.

 

.

Based on the state of most Ebay, and other 2nd hand offerings, being dropped seems to be the first thing to happen to most r-t-r stock of any kind. 

[Neal Ball]

Blimey 56 pages already! The models are a year away!

 

However the real issue for Hattons is keeping on top of the information flow, some of the suggestions above they would want to take on board. Hopefully they have a method of skimming through the posts....

 

its a bold move Hattons taking on this project and I for one am grateful that they are pledging a large sum of money into the hobby to get this project off the ground.

[Kiwi]

1 hour ago, Neal Ball said:

Hopefully they have a method of skimming through the posts...

Probably the same method as me, and most of their actual target market - start at page one, jump straight to page 57, and ignore the rest!

 

I’m  looking forward to getting some of these to run behind my 66.

[James Harrison]

5 hours ago, Kiwi said:

Probably the same method as me, and most of their actual target market - start at page one, jump straight to page 57, and ignore the rest!

 

I’m  looking forward to getting some of these to run behind my 66.

 

(Almost) prototypical. 

 

 

I've pre-ordered my rake of five this morning.

[Kiwi]

26 minutes ago, James Harrison said:

 

(Almost) prototypical. 

 

That’s annoying. Prototypical is totally banned in my modelling world. I’ll have to think of another use. They’re too nice to ignore.