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'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement


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Reading a book called "The Cement Railways of Kent" where on page 23 there is a photo of an ex LBSCR 6 wheel 1st/2nd composite coach in APCM yellow livery with blue circles between the doors taken at Kent Works Stone in 1933.

 

Given the recent blue circle Hornby B2 and doubtless so many other blue circle items, I feel this coach could make an interesting subject for Hattons model.

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So an odd ball one, has anyone proposed a 6 wheel sleeping coach in this mix ?

 

At Glasgow station concourse, theres a lovely mural to the history of Sleeper services in Glasgow including a drawing 6 wheel sleeping coach, that pretty much fits the “shape” of the generic passenger compartment stock here. 

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13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'm glad to have it confirmed that the differences between the 19th-century carriages of the pre-grouping companies are evident to a confessed non-expert! But if one was to go to the trouble of proper GNR*-shaped roofs and ends, one might as well do sides with the correct panelling...

 

*For example. Other lines are available.

 

Re. wheels: Mansell wood-centred wheels were well-nigh universal from the late sixties through to at least the twenties - most of these 4 and 6-wheelers will have gone to the grave with Mansell wheels.

Thank you for your reply about the wheels. I am always prepared to pay more for an accurate model.

 

Terry Flynn.

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39 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

So an odd ball one, has anyone proposed a 6 wheel sleeping coach in this mix ?

 

At Glasgow station concourse, theres a lovely mural to the history of Sleeper services in Glasgow including a drawing 6 wheel sleeping coach, that pretty much fits the “shape” of the generic passenger compartment stock here. 

 

The Midland had a single 6-wheel sleeping carriage built in the 1890s (along with three different lengths of bogie sleeping carriage - all experimental). Rather less rare were the family sleeping carriages, invalid carriages, and family saloons, which generally conformed to the style of the ordinary 6-wheel carriages. 

 

There are a couple of superbly restored Midland 6-wheel picnic saloons that give the general idea, though they lack the sumptuousness of the first class accommodation of the more upmarket family carriages - one in original Midland condition and the other in M&GN livery, having been transferred from Midland to Joint stock in 1903.

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13 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 The Australian coach sets are more comparable with Bachmann's Blue Pullman sets, both in concept an pricing (i.e. around three times what these will cost). Anything can be done, but what can be done for £30 is much more limited, so the comparison doesn't hold water.

 

These will be freelance models that don't look too out of place in a multitude of liveries and at very modest price points. Hatton's have decided that coaches from any single railway company would not attract sufficient demand (at the prices it would be necessary to charge) to justify making prototypical four and six-wheelers at the present time.

 

Therefore, these products are not intended for dedicated modellers of any specific railway company, whose requirements and willingness to pay for real accuracy will be very different. They are aimed at more numerous uncommitted modellers/collectors who want affordable coaches that generally "look the part" behind whichever r-t-r locos in pretty pre-group liveries have taken their fancy.

 

Very early coaches did have spoked wheels but, by the period (post-1860) that these models purport to represent, the Mansell type (wooden centres with a steel tyre) had become the norm

 

John

 

 I am prepared to pay more for a GNR style roof, and more again for accurate models. I may not go ahead at the moment and purchase these, because for GNR they  will look wrong from 2m away. Unfortunately, when a supplier produces low cost inaccurate repaint models, it increases the risk of doing  higher priced accurate RTR models. 

 

Terry Flynn.

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The Midland had a single 6-wheel sleeping carriage built in the 1890s (along with three different lengths of bogie sleeping carriage - all experimental). Rather less rare were the family sleeping carriages, invalid carriages, and family saloons, which generally conformed to the style of the ordinary 6-wheel carriages. 

 

There are a couple of superbly restored Midland 6-wheel picnic saloons that give the general idea, though they lack the sumptuousness of the first class accommodation of the more upmarket family carriages - one in original Midland condition and the other in M&GN livery, having been transferred from Midland to Joint stock in 1903.

A family/picnic saloon would be a good idea, perhaps with alternative interiors. Not so sure about invalid saloons though as they often featured double doors like parcels vans for easy access for stretchers etc.

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11 hours ago, nswgr1855 said:

Thank you for your reply about the wheels. I am always prepared to pay more for an accurate model.

 

Terry Flynn.

 

11 hours ago, nswgr1855 said:

 

 I am prepared to pay more for a GNR style roof, and more again for accurate models. I may not go ahead at the moment and purchase these, because for GNR they  will look wrong from 2m away. Unfortunately, when a supplier produces low cost inaccurate repaint models, it increases the risk of doing  higher priced accurate RTR models. 

 

Terry Flynn.


AFAIK there is no intention to make “accurate” models, just generic models that are not diabolically inaccurate. If you want truly accurate you will need to think of kit building. 

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11 hours ago, nswgr1855 said:

 

 I am prepared to pay more for a GNR style roof, and more again for accurate models. I may not go ahead at the moment and purchase these, because for GNR they  will look wrong from 2m away. Unfortunately, when a supplier produces low cost inaccurate repaint models, it increases the risk of doing  higher priced accurate RTR models. 

 

Terry Flynn.

 

Locomotion have previously said that they are planning to do accurate coaches to go with there GNR single. Whether they be by 6 wheeler or 12 wheeler bogies is not known. Equally we do not know if the intentions are still there or if they have since decided not to (or if they are still deciding anything at all).

Hattons won't be out until 2021, so we can wait a bit I suppose.

 

Edited by JSpencer
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1 hour ago, JSpencer said:

 

Locomotion have previously said that they are planning to do accurate coaches to go with there GNR single. Whether they be by 6 wheeler or 12 wheeler bogies is not known. Equally we do not know if the intentions are still there or if they have since decided not to (or if they are still deciding anything at all).

Hattons won't be out until 2021, so we can wait a bit I suppose.

 

 

GNR/ECJS clerestory 12-wheelers would be pretty amazing RTR - you can bet they'd cost more each than either the single or the atlantic and how many different diagrams would one need for a realistic express?

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33 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

GNR/ECJS clerestory 12-wheelers would be pretty amazing RTR - you can bet they'd cost more each than either the single or the atlantic and how many different diagrams would one need for a realistic express?

 

As I've spent many months making one of those one might almost imagine that RTR examples are inevitable - with a finish that contrasts uncomfortably with the one that I've achieved of course....

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2 hours ago, truffy said:

 


AFAIK there is no intention to make “accurate” models, just generic models that are not diabolically inaccurate. If you want truly accurate you will need to think of kit building. 

 

No doubt they are close enough to some  4 and 6 wheeler coaches for a couple of companies.

Unfortunately they are diabolically inaccurate for the GNR 4 and 6 wheel prototypes that I have seen photographs of. I'm not talking about a few inches or a rivet or 2 missing, but a totally different roof and paneling type. The roof is easily seen as inaccurate from 2m away.

I would also suggest a semi elliptical roof would be more accurate for GWR and NB prototypes as well.  

 

Terry Flynn.

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6 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

A GWR pedant would point out, of course, that THEIR roofs weren't semi-elliptical but three-centred ......... or a Generally Wonky Roof to others.

 

Earlier Great Western carriages had simple arc roofs - I wouldn't like to stick my neck out and say when they profile was changed. All here, of course.

 

The LSWR was another big user of a three-centred profile, though by then they were building more bogie carriages than 6-wheelers; likewise the LNWR went through a brief but important phase, though their style is generally referred to as "cove" - where that comes from, I'm not sure. Might it be a Jenkinsonism?

Edited by Compound2632
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I think the South Western roof was actually a semi-elliptical profile - though much flatter than the SECR roof with which it could often be compared in later days. it's probably fair to say that all railways started out with simple arc roofs ( cue exceptions ) and some, like the Brighton, stuck with this form a lot longer than others.

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6 minutes ago, Wickham Green said:

I think the South Western roof was actually a semi-elliptical profile

 

Could be; not entirely convinced:

 

1315612646_LSWR30ftPBVroofprofile.jpg.2f1fac206414eb87c2114da5722969a0.jpg

 

Admittedly this isn't from a dimensioned works drawing but one of Gordon Weddell's but I think those are authoritative enough.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

I believe that the earlier LSWR stock had single arc roofs, c.f. Weddell. Certainly there were arc roofed 42' bogie carriages, as well as, I believe, 4 and 6 wheelers. 

 

That was what I was attempting to imply, if phrased the other way round:

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

The LSWR was another big user of a three-centred profile, though by then they were building more bogie carriages than 6-wheelers

 

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4 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

O dear, please remember that these coaches are generic.

 

I think folk are remembering that. It's reasonable to discuss ways in which the carriages of specific companies differed from the generic norm. It's also interesting. 

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5 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

O dear, please remember that these coaches are generic.

From the evidence supplied the proposed models are not accurate enough for coaches with non simple arch roofs, as the different roof shapes are easily observed from a distance. Yes it will cost more in tooling to do 3 roof shapes, but if Hattons decide to do this I am sure the market is big enough, even if the price is increased to cover the extra cost.

 

Terry Flynn.

 

 

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8 hours ago, nswgr1855 said:

From the evidence supplied the proposed models are not accurate enough for coaches with non simple arch roofs, as the different roof shapes are easily observed from a distance. Yes it will cost more in tooling to do 3 roof shapes, but if Hattons decide to do this I am sure the market is big enough, even if the price is increased to cover the extra cost.

 

Terry Flynn.

 

 

This is very much a "toe in the water" exercise by a retailer that has chosen to tackle subjects that established manufacturers conspicuously avoid. It is possible that those companies have been making the correct commercial decisions all along, so Hatton's are taking a chance that they know better.

 

To keep the risk in bounds, they are trying to produce a range of models that are "close enough" for the maximum number of potential purchasers, whilst minimising development and tooling costs. They have made the decision they have made, and that inevitably won't satisfy everyone, but tooling for the number of variations you suggest would multiply the scope and cost of the project from one range of generic/freelance coaches to three ranges of much more specific (and substantially more expensive) models which might not return a profit, or at best no more than their lower-cost approach may generate.

 

Despite your unsubstantiated optimism over demand, nobody really knows just how big the potential market for r-t-r 4- and 6-wheeled coaches is or (even more critically) which prototypes might "fly" and which would "die". 

 

Those most likely to know, at Bachmann and Hornby, evidently decided long ago, either that it is too risky an area for investment or that "safer"/more profitable subjects should take precedence. It is only relatively recently that r-t-r models of coaches earlier than BR Mk1s have been produced to levels of accuracy and detail that we expect from locomotive models. Going earlier still is uncharted territory. 

 

Hatton's are taking a gamble on this. If it pays off, expect greater variety and authenticity from them in future and for others to jump on the bandwagon.

 

All your points were made by others far earlier in this thread, and it's pretty clear that what they and you really want isn't on offer, at least initially.

 

John

 

   

Edited by Dunsignalling
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Whatever people think the manufacturers have the actual data on markets and made their decisions on that. It’s not about just making a bit on top it’s about making a decent profit that allows other projects to be pursued with a acceptable financial risk to them, not us. 

People were up in arms when Kader moved Bachmann UK prices more in line with their other ranges in Europe, America & China but they are the ones having to pay the workforce and all the other costs. 

Hattons isn’t answering to a big money focused investment bank so is aiming these at a price that is mid range to make it available to as many as possible and by offering multiple toolings would probably have to raise that by £10-15 to maintain the same margin overall.

The extra design takes time, and probably another thread of advice this long ;)

Tooling would be duplicated 3-4 times and needs to be swapped over for each run, plus stored safely. 

Production costs in swapping tooling and making sure all the correct parts are grouped and assembly workers know the different process all cost in time and training. 

So while there may be a market for more, viability is a complicated decision to maintain margins. 

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Where there has been genuine serious demand for models of specific companies' 4 or 6-wheeled carriages, kits have been produced - often by the folk doing the demanding. I think one can make some judgement of potential demand by looking at which are the long-term survivors out of the field of kits. I'd say Midland (several manufacturers*), LNWR, and GWR** - in other words, three out of the pre-Grouping "big four" companies. The other, the NER, used to be represented by kits from D&S (along with other LNER constituents).

 

*One of whom, Slaters, did injection-moulded plastic kits, indicating confidence in the market. Sadly these have been in abeyance for some years but there is hope that they may return. **Ditto Ratio.

Edited by Compound2632
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34 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Where there has been genuine serious demand for models of specific companies' 4 or 6-wheeled carriages, kits have been produced - often by the folk doing the demanding. I think one can make some judgement of potential demand by looking at which are the long-term survivors out of the field of kits. I'd say Midland (several manufacturers*), LNWR, and GWR** - in other words, three out of the pre-Grouping "big four" companies. The other, the NER, used to be represented by kits from D&S (along with other LNER constituents).

 

*One of whom, Slaters, did injection-moulded plastic kits, indicating confidence in the market. Sadly these have been in abeyance for some years but there is hope that they may return. **Ditto Ratio.

A little bit unfair on Roxey Mouldings and Branchlines, who between them have produced brass kits for LBSCR, LSWR and SECR stock for at least twenty years, if not longer. There is some further support for the LBSC from EBM, but it is a pity that Branchlines has, currently, no on-line presence to make the range more widely known. 5&9 also have a range of mainly LBSC four wheeled carriages in their range, but I am not sure of their availability. 

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2 hours ago, Nick Holliday said:

A little bit unfair on Roxey Mouldings and Branchlines, who between them have produced brass kits for LBSCR, LSWR and SECR stock for at least twenty years, if not longer. There is some further support for the LBSC from EBM, but it is a pity that Branchlines has, currently, no on-line presence to make the range more widely known. 5&9 also have a range of mainly LBSC four wheeled carriages in their range, but I am not sure of their availability. 

 

It never ceases to amaze me how many small makers do not have an online presence. But equally it could be an old school thing where they are great crafts people, making stuff with their hands but have little interest in doing online stuff.

I agree they would get more get more sales though (speaking as someone who sometimes finds trying to contact certain excellent cottage industry producers, a little frustrating).  

 

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