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Hattons Dave

'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

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4 hours ago, AY Mod said:

I've ordered my Maryport & Carlisle coaches for a side-project. https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/emoticons/default_biggrin_mini2.gif

 

I think you may be on to something there. I have no idea what any M&C carriages looked like - I don't think i've ever seen a photo of one. So you would probably be safe from criticism!

 

4 hours ago, melmerby said:

A quick question for those in the know.

When or why was a 6 wheel chassis provided for a vehicle rather than a 4?

I've just been trawling through my Russell's GWR coach volumes and see that several 4 wheelers had longer wheelbases and bodies than some six wheelers.

 

2 hours ago, Northroader said:

On the matter of 6wheel/ 4wheel coaches, quite a lot of 1880s era coaches started life as 6 wheelers, but got converted at a later date to 4 wheelers, simplification of:maintenance probably the main reason. You can usually pick them out by a strengthening truss placed amidships. Back on the starter to this thread, the second vehicle in the header photo is one, and there’s one in the LMS set shown.

 

I think weight may enter into the equation - the Midland built quite a few 28 ft and 29 ft 4-wheelers in the 1870s that were given an extra axle in the 1880s. Possibly as bearing technology improved, companies were happier putting more weight on each axle so by the 90s, the middle axle could be dispensed with. I believe it's the case that a long-whhelbase 4-wheeler rode more easily than a 6-wheeler.

 

3 hours ago, Nile said:

Bachmann have their own range of 'generic' coaches for that, they should be available here next year. However I expect Hattons ones will look better.

 

But the Bachmann Annie and Claribel are actually quite passable LBSCR carriages of Stroudley vintage - so ideal for all these little IEG tank engines that are so popular.

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7 hours ago, woodenhead said:

Sorry I don't think that is the case, those who really want finescale pre-grouping carriages for their chosen era/company will continue to do what they have always done quite expertly, these coaches allow a larger proportion of the hobby to access coaches similar to the period without having to resort to building kits, painting and lining which may be beyond their skill (me, for example).

I am struggling to see how that is at odds with what I said. The question is, how actually similar are they to any particular pre-group railway's coaches?

 

Clearly, the euphoria expressed here about these new models clearly shows that Hatton's have identified and reacted to a market opportunity. They appear to have gauged the acceptability of generic models that can be readily identified as belonging to a railway company based solely upon the livery, with little need to get dimensional and other differences especially accurate. 

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2 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Clearly, the euphoria expressed here about these new models clearly shows that Hatton's have identified and reacted to a market opportunity. They appear to have gauged the acceptability of generic models that can be readily identified as belonging to a railway company based solely upon the livery, with little need to get dimensional and other differences especially accurate. 

 

I think that you have just touched something Jol that I have never quite understood. Most peoples actual interaction with a train is through getting in a coach or some sorts. The memory they will have is the looks and sound of that coach. Yet when a model railway is built the only things that matter are the accuracy of the loco on the front and how convincing the scenery is. The coaches could be dublo tinplate for all most people care about (or that's how it seems to be when I look at some layouts that do the rounds or appear in the press).

 

For me its the other way round, I'm not that interested in the thing on the front of the train, but I love modelling carriages, even though I'm not that good at it (see the bodges in my carriage thread for examples...)

 

So for that reason alone, I can see Hattons making a small fortune out of this move. And good on them I say!

 

Andy G

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3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I’m surprised nobody seems to be trying to work out which real coaches they are actually most similar to.

 

 

 

Do keep up, Kevin!

 

The Brighton leading so far

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Posted (edited)

Brilliant items! Look forward to the NCB and BR departmental versions. BR departmental will go well with the Bachmann crane

Edited by DLPG
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2 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Fat chance! The survivor is only a few miles from me

 

https://images.app.goo.gl/A6TXnRC8SzGwrFht7

 

Ah yes - I'd forgotten that. survived on the CRC internal system, I believe. Flat ends - good. Square-cornered waist panelling and square corners to the bottom of the windows - no good!  Nothing for it, you'll have to scratchbuild.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

Do keep up, Kevin!

 

The Brighton leading so far


With the exception that the bottom panel on Brighton stock was generally continuous, whereas the bottom panel on these carriages has beading in many sections, more akin to LNER practice... A curious mixture. The GWR livery looks to be getting around this by only picking out the appropriate bits in black but leaving other beading in chocolate(!)

The Hattons GNR liveried drawing shows what I mean.

H4-6CL-201_3525205_Qty1_cat1.jpg

Compare with a Stroudley D41 Composite:

image.png.08f12fcd5257214fe67799039bf23039.png

Edited by Skinnylinny
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The handles on the wrong side of the doors on the 4-wheel brake 3rd are definitely un-generic as well.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

8 pages of posts in a single day, I don't think we've seen that since DJexit.

 

Its clears Hattons have hit a winner, in creating something that can be anything to anyone, yet be the prototype of nothing... on a forum which was counting rivets on a dean goods, and curves / lips on a terrier’s tank for the same time period.

 

its not about the detail, its about the livery and price, just like the 66.

 

if Hornby put a non-clerestory roof on its clerestories, I suspect they could get away with much the same and mix into these sets..

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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1 minute ago, Skinnylinny said:


With the exception that the bottom panel on Brighton stock was generally continuous, whereas the bottom panel on these carriages has beading in many sections, more akin to LNER practice... A curious mixture. The GWR livery looks to be getting around this by only picking out the appropriate bits in black but leaving other beading in chocolate(!)

The GNR liveried drawing shows what I mean.

https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/H4-6CL-201_3525205_Qty1_cat1.jpg

 

After spotting the dimensional similarities, my sage words were "However, there are still almost infinite possible variations ...", but don't worry, even assuming they are otherwise a match, you'd have to repaint these in a nice warm mahogany, so just trim away!

 

This graphic implies square lights.  The others small radial corners.  cannot imagine two different toolings.  Even so, hard to imagine a 6-wheeler less like a GNR; I hope to have something more suitable behind my Stirling Single by Q1 2021.  Then again, at the rate I model ....  And that's why RTR will always score!

 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

To me, it looks distinctly North British!

 

You're teasing, right? That NBR style is really a round-cornered version of the GNR / ECJS three-layer panelling. And we haven't even touched much on the subject of roof profiles!

 

That photo nicely illustrates my point about the more parsimonious companies squeezing six third class compartments onto a 6-wheel underframe.

 

6 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

The handles on the wrong side of the doors on the 4-wheel brake 3rd are definitely un-generic as well.

 

That's probably just the image printed back-to-front?

Edited by Compound2632

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4 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

To me, it looks distinctly North British!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/NBR_3rd_Class_Carriage.jpg
(Image has been released into the public domain, for more details see https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:NBR_3rd_Class_Carriage.jpg )

 

Close, but no cigar, as you've one compartment too many there.

 

Just as well, or we'd all end up modelling Rothbury.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, trevor7598 said:

Or to put it another way, Annie and Clarabelle with a bit more finesse.

Standing by for Bachman to announce their 'Finesse' range of 4 wheeled coaches

 

Just as long as Hornby don't rerelease the Triang Thompson faux teak coaches on a mark 1 frame and call it the 'Retro' range

Edited by woodenhead
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1 minute ago, woodenhead said:

Standing by for Bachmann to announce their 'Finesse' range of 4 wheeled coaches

 

 

Bachmann finessing Hattons? Surely not. Redouble.

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I do hope that any of the serious critics of RTR locos that regularly post on here, are not going to rave

about these ' generic ' coaches, if they do they will lose all credibility.

I well remember Hornby's Class 700, Black motor,. being torn to shreds over the handrail knobs, on an

otherwise very fine model. and yet for some any old coach to hang behind the loco will do.

Surely the days of 'generic ' rolling stock have long gone, now that for some years we've had superb,

accurate, models of coaching stock from the likes of Bachmann and Hornby.

If there is a market for 4&6 wheelers, then test the water with accurate prototypes, and go from there.

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I wasn't particularly interested initially, however I've just spotted  the SR Tool Van, that  could potentially be quite useful with a breakdown crane or military train... I recall photos of the Rowland's Castle layout with SR 4 or 6 wheeled stock top and tailing trains of tanks.

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17 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Yes, the panelling below the waist is un-generic.

 

 

Actually, I think that's a serious, constructive, feedback point for Hatton's Dave, given that they are still at the CAD stage.

 

The coaches would better fulfill the generic brief if they did not have all that vertical beading below the waist.  Most typically, the beading would go along the bottom and frame the ends of the lower panel.  Rarer is to see it edging the doors, or, as here, marking out a lav. compartment.  

 

It only leads to absurdities, as Linny noted; trying to paint it out of the GW examples.  

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16 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

That's probably just the image printed back-to-front?

 

The word 'THIRD' on the doors still checked out as the word 'THIRD'...

 

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, trevor7598 said:

 

If there is a market for 4&6 wheelers, then test the water with accurate prototypes, and go from there.

Quite, they could still do all the liveries, but at least a few would be accurate.

 

my hopes of seeing a non-generic milk tank have rapidly faded today.

 

Celebrate the cause though, someones finally offered pre-grouping “stock”, which is an achievement in itself and response shows there is interest. My LYR 2-4-2T may now have something to pull, that wont take me a few years to build.

 

it could also spin off an after market for detailing.. roofs, steps, duckets & running boards are the first thing coming to my mind.

Edited by adb968008

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Hope they're worth waiting for, generic or not.

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Interesting stuff today from Hattons. I'm inclined to agree with the earlier comments about this approach likely being the only way to make coaches of this style that will achieve a worthwhile return on tooling costs. I also can't see much reason for kit companies offering a means of producing specific vehicles to those that want a completely accurate end result to lose sleep.

 

Much as these did briefly make me consider whether I really do want to part with my SECR C, I decided a couple of years back that I'd focus on the first 10-15 years of nationalisation, so a rake of these won't be joining my fleet. However, if a full brake in BR crimson was offered that would certainly catch my interest as a potential milk brake, especially as I understand the times some milk trains ran at might justify working lighting.

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