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Hattons Dave

'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement

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This is exceedingly interesting. My initial reaction, which I posted in the comments on Hattons' website on my mobile telephone during my lunch' break is that I am very surprised that they have not announced these in LBSCR livery. I remain surprised at the lack of LBSCR given the popularity of this company and abundance of locomotives for it, but thought that it might be adding a more nuanced set of comments, since it is evident that people from Hattons are reading this thread.

 

First of all, it is a splendid thing that there is a serious effort being made to make pre-grouping carriages. The 4- and 6-wheel carriages were ubiquitous for decades and this will make a huge difference to the viability of the pre-grouping period. If these are a success, and I hope that they will be, they are likely to make it more viable for other manufacturers to release pre-grouping rolling stock and locomotives as there will be things to run with earlier era locomotives.

 

I can understand why the decision has been made, at this really quite early stage of UK ready to run pre-grouping production, to use generic bodies with multiple liveries: the immense proliferation of marginally different types of carriage is a very difficult thing to mass produce economically. One can only hope that increasing interest in pre-grouping models will make it more viable in the future to produce a wider range of more specific rolling stock, including more pre-grouping bogie stock.

 

I might have been inclined to be more favourably disposed to an intermediate solution between a fully generic profile as here and several generic profiles to accommodate, e.g., arc roof, cove roof, high waisted, low waisted, etc., but the economics of this may not have been viable. This may occur with other manufacturers in the future.

 

For my own part, my preferred period to model is pre-grouping, but I am instead building a 1930s layout due to lack of sufficient ready to run rolling stock and locomotives. These carriages would not by themselves fill enough of a gap, but, at least for the companies for which these are passably plausible representations of the real carriages, these make good progress. I do plan to make my 1930s layout back-datable to the 1910s, so any progress in pre-grouping is of potential assistance in that respect, although the lack of LBSCR hinders this. Likewise, I do have an idea to build a smaller 00 gauge layout broadly on the "Victorian Minories" theme (set in the 1880s) that would suit some of these 4-wheelers very well, but the ideal livery for those would be the LBSCR, which is not planned, which is somewhat disappointing.

 

In any event, any serious progress in pre-grouping rolling stock is an excellent thing even if some of the specifics do not suit all tastes.

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This is a very interesting announcement.  I'd long wondered why with the rising cost of bogie carriages and shortage of space that we all face why there weren't some RTR 4-wheel and 6-wheel coaches but our prayers have now been answered.

It's interesting that they will be a generic type repainted for the different companies.  I imagine this won't bother most people but I hope that it won't be too hard to make amendments to get them to represent an accurate coach from a pre-grouping company.  I hope this doesn't put manufacturers off from releasing accurate coaches in future, in favour of introducing a generic coach.

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7 hours ago, Hitchin Junction said:

I could see quite a considerable a market for the chassis without the bodies as bases for home made 3D printed bodies, or special etched sides. That way the "exact" models could be available for those who want to be historically "perfect" or have "unique" models, without the engineering hassle of making precision chassis.

 

Tim


That was my immediate thought too. 

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Posted (edited)

I Googled Southern Tool Van to see how close Hattons' proposal was but they seem to be way off... 

 

download.jpeg.01b4f1e7b1e61631d9d42cd5e0da5a15.jpeg

Edited by GreenGiraffe22
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6 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

I agree. The lack of enthusiasm and even criticism from some quarters is  just odd. This is what the 00 gauge model railway market has been craving for at least 30 years. People still kitbash the Hornby 4-wheeler because there is nothing else. That says it all. These models will fly off the shelves and could be a mainstay of kitbashing for another 20 years. And as for promoting the pre-grouping era at a cost a major company can sustain (that's important) they are a godsend.

 

Would there be the same "enthusiasm" shown if Hattons had announced a generic 0-6-0 and 2-4-0 and did it in a variety of liveries?

 

I doubt it very much.

 

Freelance or generic rolling stock is trading purely on the fact that many people do not really care a great deal about coaches as long as they match the loco.

 

Well done to Hattons on filling that niche, I am sure they will do well from it which is the ultimate goal.

 

But does this benefit Pre-grouping modelling in anyway? Not really.  It certainly will not create a RTR market for accurate coaches as people are now likely to say "I have an LNWR coach, I do not need more"

 

Craig W

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This is certainly an interesting development, while I don't think I will use them on the layout I am currently building (as I would only need a couple so may as well build the kits and have the correct coach), I do think that if someone were to introduce something like a GER blue T26 (LNER E4) then I would get a set to put behind it. Will also be interesting to see if the GER ones have the Jazz service colour coding stripes.

 

I think that if this gets more people modeling the pre-grouping then that is a good thing, particularly if it ultimately leads to a greater diversity of RTR products of pre-grouping origins.

 

Another interesting use/livery would be camping coaches particularly in the attractive LNER green and cream of the late 30s such as this

 

https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/22nd-june-1936-a-family-holiday-in-a-fitted-lner-railway-news-photo/51239878

 

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3 hours ago, Craigw said:

 

Would there be the same "enthusiasm" shown if Hattons had announced a generic 0-6-0 and 2-4-0 and did it in a variety of liveries?

 

I doubt it very much.

They have, in a way.   Industrial types like the Andrew Barclay Hatton's produces mark a decent step-up from the Hornby train set locos.   While the Andrew-Barclay isn't fully 'generic,' livery options are almost endless.   I see these coaches as an extension of RTR industrial tanks.   Maybe if these 'Genesis' were done to an accurate 'Met-Camm' design, we'd have less decriers.

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, Hattons Dave said:

 

Hi Stephen,

 

I've got some answers for you regarding the key dimensions.

 

4 wheel

Body length - 105.2mm

Body width (over body, not handles) - 31.9mm

Wheelbase - 60mm

 

6 wheel

Body length - 129.2mm

Body width (over body, not handles) - 31.9 mm

Wheelbase - 42mm centres

 

In regards to accepting 21mm wheelsets, it may well be possible but with the 6 wheelers especially it wouldn't give much room left to play with to negotiate curves.

 

I hope this helps.

 

I'm actually quite pleased with this announcement in regards to the underframes, the measurements shown mean I could use a 6 wheel one for my Slaters full brake body I've had laying around!  Would be quite good for scratch and kitbuilt bodies as well.

 

I think having other diagrams in the future would be beneficial, others have stated a full brake and I highly agree with this, very common vehicles as far as 6 wheelers go, also possibly some sort of Saloon? @Hattons Dave

Edited by Synch

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, DLPG said:

Brilliant items! Look forward to the NCB and BR departmental versions. BR departmental will go well with the Bachmann crane

There are a couple of BR and SR departmental ones in there already.

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Craigw said:

 

Would there be the same "enthusiasm" shown if Hattons had announced a generic 0-6-0 and 2-4-0 and did it in a variety of liveries?

 

I doubt it very much.

 

Freelance or generic rolling stock is trading purely on the fact that many people do not really care a great deal about coaches as long as they match the loco.

 

Well done to Hattons on filling that niche, I am sure they will do well from it which is the ultimate goal.

 

But does this benefit Pre-grouping modelling in anyway? Not really.  It certainly will not create a RTR market for accurate coaches as people are now likely to say "I have an LNWR coach, I do not need more"

 

Craig W

Agreed, but what it might do is give the manufacturers a better idea of which pre-group company is popular enough to justify accurate models. There's every chance Hatton's could inspire someone else to take things further. Look what Hornby have been stimulated to produce since Bachmann threw a rock into the r-t-r pool with their BR Mk1s.

 

Many in this hobby are (and always will be) primarily loco collectors for whom coaches aren't really much more than "scenery on wheels". Hatton's have clearly identified a target market, which must include such people These coaches will undoubtedly qualify as "better scenery" so should sell well on that basis.

 

What these coaches represent for such buyers, is provide something that looks so much more "model railway" than "train set" when set alongside the diabolical Hornby 4-wheelers they are probably using at present. 

 

What's better, generic pre-group r-t-r coaches that "look the part" or no r-t-r pre-group coaches at all?

 

That's probably the real choice, at least in the short term.  

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
deletion of surplus words
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7 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

This GWR Tri-Composite lasted as an S&T Mess Van until 1954

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh2493.htm

 

 

Observe the different panel widths indicating the different lengths of the first, second, and third class compartments, and at the ends. Also look at how quite a lot of wooden panelling has been replaced with steel. It has turned under ends and a low single arc roof - not all Great Western carriages had the three-arc roof familiar from the Ratio kits. As the caption says, diagram U19 of 1884, 31' over end panels, Penhros adds, 9'6" + 9'6" wheelbase. 

 

There's so much to see when you start looking at old carriages! I think it's because of the appeal of their infinite variety that I struggle so with the "generic" concept. Heck, all Mk 1s look the same to me.

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3 hours ago, BillH said:

Another interesting use/livery would be camping coaches particularly in the attractive LNER green and cream of the late 30s such as this

 

https://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/news-photo/22nd-june-1936-a-family-holiday-in-a-fitted-lner-railway-news-photo/51239878

 

 

That is an interesting carriage, whose origins I am struggling to identify. Round-cornered eves panels, windows round-cornered at the top, square cornered at the bottom, then GNR / LNER-style square-cornered beading on the waist and lower panels. Have the lower panels been replaced when the carriage was converted to a camping coach, along with some of the doors being sealed up?

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My take on this is, they'll be great for new entrants to the hobby giving affordable small coaches to go with the plethora of small tank engines available. The potential extra interest generated by the GMRC might mean they're a solid marketing idea, as the purists will probably build kits if they really want them to be accurate to a particular diagram of coach for a given  period/company, but the various attractive pre-grouping liveries will catch buyers eyes probably.

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1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

Look what Hornby have been stimulated to produce since Bachmann threw a rock into the r-t-r pool with their BR Mk1s.

Similarly we now have about 20 suburbans from the big four era after putting up with the Airfix LMS inter district lavatory stock for a generation and a half.

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But to my mind none of these excellent arguments in favour of the generic carriage idea is an argument against making them accurate for one pre-Grouping company, rather than none. What are the small, pretty pre-Grouping passenger engines on offer at the moment? Principally from the southern lines, which narrows the field somewhat.

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I can see these flying off the shelves from Hattons and presumably the other shops that sell Hatton’s own products. They will be attractive for collectors and anyone who would like to run something that is either pre-grouping or just after. For many they will form the basis for modifications and for some modellers they may very well encourage them to build kits or stratchbuild ‘more accurate’ models. IMHO at this price point, for at least the first batch, they will prove to be irresistible for enough to make it a financial success for Hattons.

It will be interesting to see how the big boys will respond, I don’t believe that developing more accurate versions is financially viable for any major manufacturer but they could respond with some more pre-grouping liveried locos.

Its a thumbs up from me. 

All the best

Godfrey

 

 

 

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14 hours ago, AlfaZagato said:

I'll be into some LMS units.   I wonder how many 6-wheelers the Garratt can pull?

 

More than I can afford!

 

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That is an interesting carriage, whose origins I am struggling to identify. Round-cornered eves panels, windows round-cornered at the top, square cornered at the bottom, then GNR / LNER-style square-cornered beading on the waist and lower panels. Have the lower panels been replaced when the carriage was converted to a camping coach, along with some of the doors being sealed up?

 

Ex MS&LR (GCR) I believe.  From the pictures and drawings in George Dow's "Great Central" (vol. 2) the MS&LR had coaches with square cornered lower panelling, and the round topped axle boxes point towards the GC as well.  Can't see whether the camping coach is 4 or 6 wheeled, but it looks quite similar to the MS&L 6 wheeled 5 compartment 3rds built 1879-1899 in the drawing on Appendix IX of the above book.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, adb968008 said:

8 pages of posts in a single day, I don't think we've seen that since DJexit.

 

Its clears Hattons have hit a winner, in creating something that can be anything to anyone, yet be the prototype of nothing... on a forum which was counting rivets on a dean goods, and curves / lips on a terrier’s tank for the same time period.

 

its not about the detail, its about the livery and price, just like the 66.

 

if Hornby put a non-clerestory roof on its clerestories, I suspect they could get away with much the same and mix into these sets..

 

 

 

Spot On .  "DJexit" , love it . Got to be quote of the week, as it s very similar to dejection!

 

Yes well done Hattons, yet again .  Bringing something to the market no one else has dared to . A generic model that's designed to appeal to  the general modeler , not those that model the GNR 1910-1915 or L&NWR 1900-1905, but those who just want a respectable rake of "older" style coaches that look reasonable to run behind some of the pre grouping locos appearing, a much larger market  than those with specific modelling time frames . Lets face it getting accurate  RTR coaching stock for people modelling specific companies or eras was never going to be commercially viable , so this represents the next best thing.

 

And again adb968008 hits it on the head , its about livery and price . At £30 each they are priced well when some companies have freight stock £50+

Edited by Legend
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17 minutes ago, Legend said:

Lets face it getting accurate  RTR coaching stock for people modelling specific companies or eras was never going to be commercially viable 

 

Unproven. In fact there is a counter-example: Hornby's Great Western 56 ft corridor clerestory carriages. For all their many and manifest defects, they're basically faithful to the prototype and have been steady sellers for 30 years or more - or at least one presumes so, since they keep being re-issued.

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Posted (edited)

Its been mentioned about the beading being not right for a particular company. Perhaps Hattons might consider a version without beading. Theres plenty of after market suppliers who will be able to supply laser cut or etched beading.Theres no doubt many will be repainted into liveries that have not been proposed/announced as well as some fictional liveries. 

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That is an interesting carriage, whose origins I am struggling to identify. Round-cornered eves panels, windows round-cornered at the top, square cornered at the bottom, then GNR / LNER-style square-cornered beading on the waist and lower panels. Have the lower panels been replaced when the carriage was converted to a camping coach, along with some of the doors being sealed up?

IIRC the early LNER camping coaches were ex GNR ECJS dating from the 1880's. They had lower, flatter roofs than later stock. A 'lower roof' variant might be worthy of consideration by Hattons as it could also be used as a basis for a clerestory version.

Edited by PhilJ W
Fat finger syndrome.
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1 minute ago, PhilJ W said:

Its been mentioned about the beading being not right for a particular company. Perhaps Hattons might consider a version without beading. Theres plenty of after market suppliers who will be able to supply laser cut or etched beading.

 

That, I think, is the point at which a kit becomes comparable - the challenges of accurate assembly and a good paint job are the same. And what about hinges, handles, etc.?

 

In any case, it's realistic proportions based on an understanding of compartment dimensions that's needed to make these carriages look more realistic, whilst remaining generic. I'm not completely against the generic concept, so long as the carriages look right, which to my eye, several of them do not at present.

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A request for @Hattons Dave- Have you thought about doing a version in a Camping Coach livery?

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1 hour ago, Godfrey Glyn said:

I can see these flying off the shelves from Hattons and presumably the other shops that sell Hatton’s own products. They will be attractive for collectors and anyone who would like to run something that is either pre-grouping or just after. For many they will form the basis for modifications and for some modellers they may very well encourage them to build kits or stratchbuild ‘more accurate’ models. IMHO at this price point, for at least the first batch, they will prove to be irresistible for enough to make it a financial success for Hattons.

It will be interesting to see how the big boys will respond, I don’t believe that developing more accurate versions is financially viable for any major manufacturer but they could respond with some more pre-grouping liveried locos.

Its a thumbs up from me. 

All the best

Godfrey

 

 

 

Spot on.   While we might think the day of the generic coach is done it very g clearly isn't and let's face it the market for truly accurate r-t-r models of individual company's vehicles is likely to be limited.  It would be even more limited once there is a range of generics.  And rather cleverly, pedantically accurate or not, issuing them in a range of liveries is a good way to capture the widest possible market because many people simply aren't able or prepared to repaint vehicles to their own preferred livery.  With ever increasing numbers of Pre-Group livered engines in the marketplace it is a great idea to offer some coaches to go with and many (most?) people will be quite satisfied with reasonably priced generic models .  No doubt they won't suit the purists but then they will already be using/adapting kits or scratch building so they probably won't form a major part of the market for these vehicles.   

 

The only downside I can see is that to a large extent this idea might possibly kill the market, and undoubtedly reduce it, for any r-t-r truly accurate Pre-Group four & six wheeled passenger vehicles.  Overall I think the positives are likely to greatly outnumber that negative aspect.   Some very clever and well thought out marketing from Hattons.

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