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'Genesis' 4 & 6 wheel coaches in OO Gauge - New Announcement


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  • 2 weeks later...
9 hours ago, Hroth said:

Wow!  Look at the gaps between the carriages.  Must be using tension-lock couplings...  :crazy:

 

Nothing remarkable there. Taking a third class compartment width of around 6 ft, I'd estimate the gap to be around 4 ft which would be about right - buffers on passenger stock typically projected 2 ft from the headstocks.

Edited by Compound2632
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  • 3 weeks later...

I like the Great Central livery best, perhaps because I know least about Great Central carriages! But shouldn't the brown be taken up to the beading at the top of the lower panel?

 

I'm afraid that for the Midland livery, I have to draw your attention to Midland Style, p. 108:

 

"March 1906 marked the beginning of the final period in the lettering of arc-roofed carriages. In that month the word MIDLAND began to appear in a serif style of lettering on a sub-rectangular black ground in an eves panel of bogie carriages, as centrally as possible, in place of the MR in the waist. [...] Six- and four-wheeled carriages continued to carry the old letters MR on the waist."

 

Anyway, the black panel is merely behind the word MIDLAND; the black should not fill the whole panel. What Ralph Lacy meant by "sub-rectangular" is unclear but the panel had rounded (convex) corners. 

 

Photos of Midland 6-wheelers post-1906 where the lettering can be distinguished seem hard to come by!

Edited by Compound2632
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Interesting idea, I have seen the spec on the website and think that there is one thing that some might want to add.

 

Add Express models tail lamps for DC these could be wired so that the one at the rear illuminates.  With DCC if the rake has an address the light could be controlled using the normal direction.

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Posted (edited)

Definitely looking rather good so worth going for some for a 'fun train' with various Pre-group locos I couldn't resist buying from the NRM.   I think Hattons will find the effort they have put into their generic coaches will be well worth while in the market place as they really seem to be a quality product.

Edited by The Stationmaster
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On 31/12/2020 at 17:31, Compound2632 said:

I like the Great Central livery best, perhaps because I know least about Great Central carriages! But shouldn't the brown be taken up to the beading at the top of the lower panel?

It looks to me (as a GCR non-expert!) like the livery has been drawn to resemble that on the preserved MS&LR no.946, which has very deep waist beading and very shallow lower panels, giving a very deep French Grey section, and not much brown at the bottom. Unfortunately that does give a very strange look on the mouldings on the Genesis carriage. 

946-at-Ruddington-1024x684-1.jpg

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13 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Definitely looking rather good so worth going for some for a 'fun train' with various Pre-group locos I couldn't resist buying from the NRM.   I think Hattons will find the effort they have put into their generic coaches will be well worth while in the market place as they really seem to be a quality product.

And while many of us will happily accept their honestly-declared generic nature, sales will quickly tell Hattons which liveries are perhaps worth pursuing for more faithful replicas, having already learnt the best methods of design and construction. 

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22 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

It looks to me (as a GCR non-expert!) like the livery has been drawn to resemble that on the preserved MS&LR no.946, which has very deep waist beading and very shallow lower panels, giving a very deep French Grey section, and not much brown at the bottom. Unfortunately that does give a very strange look on the mouldings on the Genesis carriage. 

946-at-Ruddington-1024x684-1.jpg

 

There's been some recent discussion about this representation of the livery on, I think, @James Harrison's thread. My gut feeling is that the Vintage Carriages Trust's 4-wheel luggage composite displays a much more faithful reproduction of the livery, both in shade of brown and in lining out, but as I said I'm rather ignorant of MS&L / GC carriages, so more knowledgeable input would be very useful. 

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Hi Dave.

 

I have just had another look at the livery rendition for the S.E. & C.R. coaches and this still looks too light. I think that the preserved coaches on the K. & E.S.R. were painted a lighter shade, whereas those on the Bluebell Railway were painted darker nearer to the colour used by Bachmann on their coaches. I am a member of the South Eastern and Chatham Railway Society and a number of our members are also involved in the coach restoration on the Bluebell and were responsible for the painting of their coaches. A good point of contact would be John Arkell (I can provide contact details if you PM me), who would be able to give a precise specification. After all, if modellers are willing to use generic coaches on their layouts, there is no reason why these should be painted the wrong colour. They may look prettier, but won't give an accurate appearance.

Hopefully not too late to change the specification.

 

All the best for a happy and productive new year in 2021.

 

RAy Blanchard

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47 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

Hi Dave.

 

I have just had another look at the livery rendition for the S.E. & C.R. coaches and this still looks too light. I think that the preserved coaches on the K. & E.S.R. were painted a lighter shade, whereas those on the Bluebell Railway were painted darker nearer to the colour used by Bachmann on their coaches. I am a member of the South Eastern and Chatham Railway Society and a number of our members are also involved in the coach restoration on the Bluebell and were responsible for the painting of their coaches. A good point of contact would be John Arkell (I can provide contact details if you PM me), who would be able to give a precise specification. After all, if modellers are willing to use generic coaches on their layouts, there is no reason why these should be painted the wrong colour. They may look prettier, but won't give an accurate appearance.

Hopefully not too late to change the specification.

 

All the best for a happy and productive new year in 2021.

 

RAy Blanchard

I think it's been debated before when the livery artworks were released.

 

I checked with people associated with the Bluebell and they confirmed both liveries are correct for certain periods so both the Hattons and Bachmann liveries are correct. 

 

 

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Just reviewing the MR options, cross referencing Jenkinson and Campling Historic Carriage Drawings, I'm prepared to compromise on and purchase the 6 wheel 3rd, B/3rd and composite (as long buffered) to bulk out my fleet, but can anyone give a perspective on the 4 wheel versions? How do they relate to actual MR versions, when were they built and last to? IS there any easy to access source I can cross check?

 

I think the 6 wheel all brake in all its "generic-ness" is too way off for me but, as concept, the Genesis initiative is to be welcomed.

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4 hours ago, MR Chuffer said:

Just reviewing the MR options, cross referencing Jenkinson and Campling Historic Carriage Drawings, I'm prepared to compromise on and purchase the 6 wheel 3rd, B/3rd and composite (as long buffered) to bulk out my fleet, but can anyone give a perspective on the 4 wheel versions? How do they relate to actual MR versions, when were they built and last to? IS there any easy to access source I can cross check?

 

I think the 6 wheel all brake in all its "generic-ness" is too way off for me but, as concept, the Genesis initiative is to be welcomed.

 

If you're at all interested in Midland carriages, the book to look out for is R.E. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages (Wild Swan, 1986, 2 Vols.), usually available second hand at reasonable prices. Another useful source is the Lot List in Vol. 2 of Essery's Midland Wagons (OPC, 1980) although that doesn't add anything that's not in Lacy & Dow. Having looked myself, I'm happy to venture the opinion that if something isn't in Lacy & Dow, it's simply not now knowable!

 

A quick place to look is the Midland Railway Study Centre on-line catalogue; put in "carriage" as your search term and select "Photograph" as the category; scrolling through the 1,200+ thumbnail images you'll come across most of the official photos used in Lacy & Dow.

 

Jenkinson is pretty lousy on the arc-roof period as his basis for selection is vehicles that reached the LMS. His LNWR book suffers from the same defect.

 

The principal differences between the Hattons Genesis carriages and genuine Midland types are:

  • Flat ends: Midland carriages had turn-under or tumblehome to the ends, matching the sides
  • Guard's lookouts or duckets: Midland arc-roofed carriages did not have these, with the exception of the 4-wheel passenger brake vans, D529.
  • Length: the Hattons 6-wheelers are 32ft; most Midland 6-wheelers were 31ft, the Hattons 4-wheelers are 28ft, the Midland 4-wheelers I'll discuss below were 27ft.

Carriages in this general style were built by the Midland from 1874 to 1895. The earliest examples were built with 10ft radius roofs, flatter than the Hattons carriages, which are closer to the 8ft radius used from 1878, if I remember correctly. For the 6-wheelers:

  • The 5-compartment third could pass for the D493 31ft third, of which 711 were built 1884-1895 for general service, along with 83 with short buffers for use in set trains, 10 for the Midland Scotch Joint Stock (built by the NBR at Cowlairs) and 1 with a narrower body to fit the Glenfield Tunnel on the Leicester West Bridge line. These were by far the most numerous type of Midland carriage.
  • The lavatory composite could pass for the small number of D516 31ft centre luggage composites that had the luggage compartment converted to lavatories in 1892. 200 of these carriages were built for general service in 1884/5 along with 25 for the Midland Scotch Joint Stock (built by the GSWR at Kilmarnock) and 2 with narrow bodies for the West Bridge line; only two of the MSJS carriages were converted; the number of Midland conversions is not known (but probably not many). Alternatively, these carriages could pass for the 10 MSJS thirds that had their middle compartment converted to lavatories, or the similar 42 thirds built new with lavatories in 1889/90, D494. The MSJS stock was divided roughly equally between the Midland and its two Scottish partners around the turn of the century, following the introduction of new bogi clerestory corridor carriages on the Scotch Expresses.
  • The brake third is not really a satisfactory representation of a Midland vehicle, owing to the guard's duckets and the too-short compartments
  • The Midland had no 6-wheel passenger brake vans in the arc-roof period.

There are two groups of carriages that the Hattons 4-wheelers might represent:

  • Carriages built c. 1874/5. There were no 5-compartment thirds or brake thirds with duckets but a good many 4-compartment all firsts and composites - the majority of these were 29ft long but there was a batch of 28ft composites. However, these carriages were all fitted with a middle axle, turning them into 6-wheelers, from the early 1880s.
  • London area suburban carriages built 1876 and 1883/4, operated as close coupled sets. The 5-compartment third could pass for D495 and the 4-compartment carriage for the firsts to D483; unfortunately the brake's duckets rule out any resemblance to the D505 brake thirds. These carriages were 1ft shorter than the Hattons carriages and also wider, being 8'6" over body panels.

Almost all these carriages, with the exception of D493 and D516, were renewed around the turn of the century and mostly withdrawn without receiving the 1905 livery style chosen by Hattons, which as I previously noted, was not applied to 6-wheelers in the manner depicted by Hattons - they didn't get "MIDLAND" in the eves panel.

 

Hattons have used the following numbers, I've attempted to identify the Midland carriage to which each belonged:

  • 4-wheel third brake 1545 - D505 27ft third brake (London area short buffer sets)
  • 4-wheel third brake 1520 - D504 31ft third brake (short buffer sets)
  • 4-wheel first 315 - 27ft first (London area short buffer sets)
  • 4-wheel composite 114 - 40ft bogie compoite
  • 4-wheel third 382 - D495 27ft third (London area short buffer sets)
  • 4-wheel third 799 - 40 ft bogie composite
  • 6-wheel third brake 865 - not found
  • 6-wheel third brake 1502 - D504 31ft third brake (short buffer sets)
  • 6-wheel third 8 - MSJS D493 31ft third
  • 6-wheel third 1217 - D493 31ft third
  • 6-wheel lavatory first 333 - D292 30ft first (short buffer sets)
  • 6-wheel lavatory composite 395 - D512 45ft bogie lavatory composite
  • 6-wheel passenger brake van 450 - D529 25ft passenger brake van

... which I think demonstrates that Hattons have had a copy of Lacy & Dow to hand and have by-and-large tried to match the numbers they've picked to actual carriages of broadly the same type. Many of the numbers are taken from official photos.

 

Edited by Compound2632
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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

If you're at all interested in Midland carriages

As ever, the whole 9 yards, my knowledge massively increased, much appreciation for the trouble you have taken.

 

You confirm some of my initial observations which is why I put the post up, the guards duckets are wrong but I have some Wizard MR ones left over to play with. And its useful to know the arc roofed 6w brake is a non starter for me anyway, I have a 4w brake etched kit I'll stick with.

 

I'm in no hurry as I already have a Wizard D.490 43′ Bogie Third and a PC Models Etched MR 6 wheel Arc roofed Lugg Compo to build so I can be judicious in picking the closest Hattons models for a branch stopping local, and I've seen photos of some pretty mixed profile MR branch locals pre-WW1.

 

Right, glass of beer to hand now whilst I settle down to analyse and pick the bones out of the rest of your post, cheers.

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Does anyone have colour photos of blue NCB coaches? There are several colour photos of NCB miners' trains online, but I haven't found any with blue coaches - not even ones that might be blue underneath all the filth.

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6 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There's been some recent discussion about this representation of the livery on, I think, @James Harrison's thread. My gut feeling is that the Vintage Carriages Trust's 4-wheel luggage composite displays a much more faithful reproduction of the livery, both in shade of brown and in lining out, but as I said I'm rather ignorant of MS&L / GC carriages, so more knowledgeable input would be very useful. 

 

I think you're thinking of @richard i's Dettingen thread, French Grey and Chocolate is too early for me (plus I can't understand why that livery has been chosen as there's nothing currently available in the motive power line that could run with it, except maybe if Bachmann backdated their J11?- and even that wouldn't particularly a good fit).  Considering the expertise of the people who have restored No.946- including the guy who has I believe literally written the book on GCR carriages- I can't see that it's a million miles off what the livery actually looked like.  But it was so long ago who can say for certain?- oh to have a time machine and take a modern colour camera back to say 1903....

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Following Hornby's announcement this morning, you can never have too many generic carriages, apparently... :O

 

 

I look forward to receiving my pack of four 'Genesis' carriages in LB&SCR umber as and when they're ready.

Edited by jafcreasey
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I have had to trim my Genesis order due to a lack of cash over the next few months but once I am able to buy more 4 wheelers they will be from Hattons who have engaged with us here unlike Hornby who for the second time with a Hattons product have snuck in the back door late in the day. I wish Hattons all the very best with the Genesis coaches and will keep my views of Hornby to myself as I don't want to cause Andy and the team any trouble. 

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