Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Hi Folks, quick question time!

 

Great Western all-over brown. Not chocolate, surely?

 

I'm about to 'do' some clerestories into some secondary, down-rated coaches, so I'm particularly interested in the colour scheme.

 

Any  information will be duly appreciated. 

 

Many thanks,

Ian.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
11 hours ago, Trainshed Terry said:

To get the answer tom you question it would be helpful if had a time period IE BR or GWR.

 

Terry

 Hello Terry, thanks for the e-mail. I'm thinking the time frame of post-grouping, up to Nationalisation, about 1925-1946.

Cheers,

Ian.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

'All-over brown' was adopted for some stock (older PBVs, workmen's trains) from the mid-20s. The colour was chocolate, i.e. the same as that used in the ordinary livery. No lining was applied. I have seen one or two pics of Paddington c 1925/6 with stock seemingly in the livery, but to be honest, I do wonder whether it is remnants of the pre-1922 crimson lake era. In all those pics, the stock is older non-corridor clerestories.

 

In WWII, all sorts of adhoc stuff was going on for old clerestories, even corridor stock. The all-over brown that was slopped over some vehicles was probably a nondescript dark brown, and probably unvarnished. (A few handfuls of dark umber, say.) This brown is in distinction to the 'reddish-brown' that was formally adopted in 1942 for prestige stock.

 

In context, given that such economy diversions from the normal choc and cream regime lasted only from 1942 to 1944-ish, and that Swindon had more important things to do than waste time painting coaches, it is likely these non-chocandcream schemes appeared only on a relatively few vehicles.

 

 

 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
  • Informative/Useful 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to add a bit more, I have seen some GWR colour film of 1944 which shows a train arriving at Aldermaston with both all over brown and chocolate and cream carriages.  The quality of the film is not very good (inadequate early morning light, I suspect) but the brown looks the same on all the carriages, so probably was chocolate.  (Mind you, could all just have the same coloured mud coating!)  Interestingly, later in the film is footage of a GWR ambulance, looking freshly painted in full chocolate and cream.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It looks from the photos, mostly monochome so it’s hard to be definitive, that there were two distinct all-brown liveries, a plain chocolate (presumably the same as the lower part of the chocolate and cream livery) used on workmen’s stock (4 wheelers and non-gangwayed clerestories).  from the 20s and for some non-gangwayed stock and some auto trailers during the 1942-5 period, and a lighter brown, more like milk chocolate, used on gangwayed, some non-gangwayed, and some auto trailers during 1942–5.  This lighter brown livery had orange lining at waist height.  It may have been used only on steel bodied non-gangwayed stock and trailers. 

 

In 1945, I think when hostilities had ceased in Europe, the chocolate and cream livery was re-introduced for all stock except workman’s, which continued to be painted in the darker brown livery. 

 

It is particularly difficult to be definitive about workman’s stock, especially in South Wales miner’s trains, as they were usually very dirty!

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

There are a few on Warwickshire Railways at Snow Hill in 1947

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/birminghamsnowhill_locos.htm#stock

 

Just when I thought I couldn't justify one of Hattons new Project Genesis offerings........... lovely all brown 6 wheeler Mess van..............

 

 

Brown paint, made usually using pigments of green and red or black and red, would be subject to  worse fading due to the cyano content of red, especially when not sealed by varnish.  Add the fact that most "all brown" vehicles would not be at the top of the list for carriage washing, and you will soon get 500 shades of faded and matt dark brown.

 

Austerity brown, with the orange lining would have been varnished and still pristine albeit grubby in your time frame.  This is the brown which is more "milk" chocolate than "Bourneville"

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting stuff.

 

I've got some Hornby clerestory coaches (long) which I tend not to run as they look dated with all that lining and old insignias when next to my other stuff.

 

Would some of these be suitable to take an all-over brown finish to "modernise" them into the '30s?

 

That would seem more like the sort of paint job I could handle.

 

Pete.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Star-rider said:

 

I've got some Hornby clerestory coaches (long) which I tend not to run as they look dated with all that lining and old insignias when next to my other stuff.

 

Would some of these be suitable to take an all-over brown finish to "modernise" them into the '30s?

 

That would seem more like the sort of paint job I could handle.

 

 

Absolutely.1361638530_wartimebrownC15clerestory.jpga.jpg.91355690cbfb5510061806e1c4129bb1.jpg

 

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/10/2019 at 19:38, M.I.B said:

 

Just when I thought I couldn't justify one of Hattons new Project Genesis offerings........... lovely all brown 6 wheeler Mess van..............

 

 

Agreed - i've already mentally marked down one of those for all-over brown treatment - happy to accept the accuaracy compromises as an "absorbed" vehicle for odd duties.

 

(I Wish it was a proper O13 Milk Brake beinfg produced though....)

 

Pete.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

Excellent!

 

Were the grab handles picked out by hand?

 

Not being critical, but do you dodge applying running numbers too? Although I have HMRS Pressfix sheets I have never attempted applying them to the dozen or so Comet kits I've built as I'm pretty sure that they would looked worse being all displaced at slightly different heights than they would be with no numbers at all.

 

Hints & tips on this from anyone would be much apprecaited.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a photo or two of clerestories post war in that livery with no numbers visible, especially as they went filthy anyway. The door handles were picked out with a brass pen.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 15/10/2019 at 20:37, Star-rider said:

Excellent!

 

Were the grab handles picked out by hand?

 

Not being critical, but do you dodge applying running numbers too? Although I have HMRS Pressfix sheets I have never attempted applying them to the dozen or so Comet kits I've built as I'm pretty sure that they would looked worse being all displaced at slightly different heights than they would be with no numbers at all.

 

Hints & tips on this from anyone would be much apprecaited.

Yes, I cheat by:

not putting them on,

or by picking a transfer with a sequence of numbers that follow but have no relationship to the coach ( so I only have one transfer to stick on)

or by sticking on a transfer and dirtying the coach
or by picking easy numbers and painting them

any others?

cheers, Dai

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are two photos, albeit in monotone, in the GWR volume in Brian Haresnape's series on Big Four railway liveries including one vehicle where the only thing which can be seen is a GWR coat of arms with no other details including a number showing.   There are two identifiable brown livery passenger coaches in 'The Big Four In Colour' and in one case the all over brown vehicle is between two in chocolate & cream livery - the shades of brown match.  There is also a picture which includes brown livery NPCCS vehicles marshalled next to chocolate & cream vehicles and again the brown colours match.

  • Like 1
  • Informative/Useful 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 17/10/2019 at 15:53, The Stationmaster said:

There are two photos, albeit in monotone, in the GWR volume in Brian Haresnape's series on Big Four railway liveries including one vehicle where the only thing which can be seen is a GWR coat of arms with no other details including a number showing.   

 

 

"For those of you watching in black and white the pink is just behind the blue............"

  • Like 1
  • Funny 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 15/10/2019 at 20:14, Star-rider said:

Interesting stuff.

 

I've got some Hornby clerestory coaches (long) which I tend not to run as they look dated with all that lining and old insignias when next to my other stuff.

 

Would some of these be suitable to take an all-over brown finish to "modernise" them into the '30s?

 

That would seem more like the sort of paint job I could handle.

 

Pete.

 

I have done exactly this - a couple of "All Over Browns" using a nice dull GWR brown (Phoenix or Railmatch) and also a lake Clerestory which I deliberately over-sprayed  lightly with the "wrong" varnish and it has wrinkled very slightly.  Add some weathering and hey presto - a nice world weary, piece of emergency stock.

 

I would recommend the removal of the running boards on the bogies - as seen in Rob's coach photo.  I used Xacto rail clippers and some Draper mini files.  Doesn't take long and it is period correct for "old" clerestories in the 40s.

 

A rule I have set myself is that no clerestories will be "Austerity Brown".  By the "Austerity" period, I personally think that the likelihood of a service coach getting anything more than a patch paint is slim.  (This is not based on fact but opinion/logic)post-10306-0-01393400-1436430348_thumb.jpgpost-10306-0-51987200-1483032954_thumb.jpg

Edited by M.I.B
  • Like 4
  • Craftsmanship/clever 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.