Harbour Wall Height?

[Artisan]

Although I have modelled in N gauge I am new to OO and just about to start a small layout.  The layout will be a harbour scene with shunting facilities. What I would like to know is what would be the average height of a harbour wall from the water level to the quayside?

 

Greg

[Fat Controller]

At High Water, I'd reckon on perhaps six foot or so, perhaps less.

[TheQ]

low tide?

high tide

Edited October 11, 2019 by TheQ

[Hroth]

Perhaps a notional half-tide lock to maintain the water level at a relatively constant level.

 

What sort of boats would be envisaged using the facilities?

[LBRJ]

First of all it obviously depends on the state of the tide.

 

• Using my best known example of a harbour with a railway running along the quayside, which is Looe.
• I would suggest anything from 16 feet at lowest water through to - something feet at the highest spring tides with an onshore breeze......

[russ p]

I had a look at this for my layout,  it seems to vary from location to location and obviously if its tidal that affects it too. Don't think there is any rule of thumb 

[Artisan]

I am sorry I have confused you all. What I meant and wanted to know was in modelling terms what would the average height be in mm at high tide from the water surface to the quayside when modelling in OO gauge?

[LBRJ]

In 4mm scale probably somewhere in the region of 25mm.

[Stubby47]

I think the answer is what ever you want it to be

 

Average tides would probably be a few feet (so 4-8mm) below the top of the quay wall, but spring tides. bad weather tides, a combination of these or any other factors can raise the 'high tide' level to over the top of the quay wall or lower it to several feet below.

 

Perhaps more relevant is where in the UK (?) are you basing the layout, is it an inner quay or outer quay, and as mentioned is there a lock gate or just open to the natural tides?

 

Google earth can show images of harbour walls and the tide marks should show as a horizontal change of colour, as seen here at Mevagissey, Cornwall.

 

 

HTH

 

Stu

[Stubby47]

LBRJ offers 25mm (over 6ft) compared to my 1-2 ft.

 

Thinking further, unloading fish from a deck 6ft below the quay wall would be hard work, but loading into a vessel which is towering above the quay would also be labourious, so maybe quay wall heights need to be suited to the type of traffic using them.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Stubby47

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, Stubby47 said:

I think the answer is what ever you want it to be

 

Average tides would probably be a few feet (so 4-8mm) below the top of the quay wall, but spring tides. bad weather tides, a combination of these or any other factors can raise the 'high tide' level to over the top of the quay wall or lower it to several feet below.

 

Perhaps more relevant is where in the UK (?) are you basing the layout, is it an inner quay or outer quay, and as mentioned is there a lock gate or just open to the natural tides?

 

Google earth can show images of harbour walls and the tide marks should show as a horizontal change of colour, as seen here at Mevagissey, Cornwall.

 

 

HTH

 

Stu

The opening credits to Doc Martin, gives a good idea.

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, TheQ said:

low tide?

high tide

 With my revolting pedant's hat on, this is a breakwater not a wharf for cargo or fish handling.

Edited October 11, 2019 by The Johnster

[eastglosmog]

As I recall, Southampton dock wharves were about 6-7ft above water at high tide, 20-21ft at low tide.  That is a very sheltered port with a low tidal range, however.

[Kris]

As some food for thought, does your proposed harbour dry out at low water? If so you can get away with any reasonable height that you want. If you are only talking of small boats then don't (generally) need massive amounts of water to float. 

[phil_sutters]

There can be huge differences in the height of tides. At Newhaven on the south coast, the next spring tide on the 15th October is expected to be 3.4ft at low tide and 22ft at high tide. Some places in the Bristol Channel have even bigger differences between high and low tides. The photos of Newhaven marina at high and low tide - the actual heights I didn't record - can be seen in the photo below. It is really a matter for you to decide bearing in mind what type of shipping you want include, and how it fits with the rest of the layout's scenery. I guess most people would show the tide fairly full, allowing a safe margin for ensuring the water doesn't overtop the quayside and flood the area around. As for loading and unloading at different states of tide, ships have derricks and ports have cranes to lift the goods if needed - there is another thread about dockside cranes. Fishing boat jetties usually have some simple hand or winch operated hoists to lift the boxes of fish to the quayside. You can see one circled in the fish quay photo. 

Edited October 11, 2019 by phil_sutters

[Kris]

26 minutes ago, phil_sutters said:

There can be huge differences in the height of tides. At Newhaven on the south coast, the next spring tide on the 15th October is expected to be 3.4ft at low tide and 22ft at high tide. Some places in the Bristol Channel have even bigger differences between high and low tides. 

 

The tide at Avonmouth today has a 33ft difference between low and high tide this evening. 

[The Johnster]

Spring tides at Avonmouth can be around the 50’ range between low and high; further up the estuary at Sharpness you can add 20’ to that.  These are extremes, of course, but tidal ranges around the British Isles are considerable. 

[eastglosmog]

I've been looking at some old tomes on harbour engineering, and the height of a wharf above high water level varies considerably.  Some in New York were only a few feet above HWL. Halifax was 5-6ft.  Tranmere about 8ft, Whitby 11ft (on average).

Edited October 12, 2019 by eastglosmog

[Stubby47]

Artisan, have you thought about a nice desert-based station instead?

Edited October 12, 2019 by Stubby47

[Dave John]

Artisan, the way I did it was to make a mock up. I knew the boat I wanted in the scene was a waterline model of a Clyde puffer. So I got a photo of it side on , scaled it to the size the model would be and stuck it to some cardboard. I then placed that against a dockside made of various bits of cardboard box. the dockside height was adjusted with card and tape so that the boat formed part of the scene but did not obscure the sight line to the activities on the quayside.  

 

After playing about and squinting at it all from various angles I decided that a quayside of about 38 mm looked right, comes in at about 35 mm once the water is in place. 

 

Of course that figure is just for the model I wanted to make, but the general idea of messing about with mockups really does help when you are not sure about the sizes of things.