Which DCC Controller and Decoder Compatibility?

[Canley Central]

I recently got rid of my Bachmann Dynamis DCC Controller as it was old and unreliable signal wise, often resulting in a crash at the buffers due to the poor signal. I went straight back to DC. But I miss the lights being on on the locos and how slow they could run under DCC. 

 

I recently went to buy some Train tech smarts screens and realised I cannot programme them now without a DCC controller! 

 

I only have 2 main lines in a large oval, both lines have a branch off and on again to create 4 platforms at the Station and 2 now derelict lines that went out into the garden. 

I never made the full transfer to DCC and mostly reverted back to DC due to the garden lines, all my scenic electrics are manually operated at my switch panel. 

 

However I'm currently planning a switch panel for my 4 points at the station to operate the PL-11 peco points which all need installing could DCC come in there?

 

I suppose ideally I'd like to get a budget DCC controller that I can programme the Train-tech smart screens and possible using it just to control those and some sound modules also from train-tech, but if I do take the plunge and go fully digital will the controller I get work with all the decoders I already have. (Bachmann and Hornby)  I've been told the Hornby Select and Bachmann Dynamis wired controllers only work with their own decoders. Will those cheaper budget controllers be able to program the train tech smart screens anyway?  

 

I did like the large LCD and all the information displayed of the wireless dynamis and would have kept it if there had been an option to have in wired. Plus the fact you could name the locos.

 

I'm only now aware of the many DCC brands and the cost to which some of them run, but I'm so confused to which would meet my needs, if any of that makes sense, sorry If it doesn't, I blame it on the Sepsis. 

[Phil S]

E+OE and At the risk of this becoming a list of everyone's favourite controllers ... I'd recommend the Roco Multimaus Family... whether used with an older Amplifier 10764 or now a newer z21/z21 start/Z21 ... which can all be obtained economically in the UK ... but the old amplifier is getting harder to find (separated from starter sets)

It has the display you request: 64 Named locos (5 characters or now 10 on a Z21) - [but no limit to locos called by number], a graphic for L/R ( l/r or Straight/Curved, as you wish) for point position, and unlike the Dynamis is NOT limited to 100 points !  ... 1-9999 locos,  and 2000 points. Clear Loco Direction and 28 function control.

 

With the z21 you can choose the wireless version - using WiFi- ... good for going out into the garden - where the extra permanent voltage of dcc is also an advantage !

They all use Xpresssnet and so can work with Lenz and other Xpressnet using controllers.

 

WLAN Multimaus  around 80-90GBP each (z221 extra) - touchscreens also usable and a good track diagram display on any tablet.

 

Someone has been leading you up the [disused?] garden path in suggesting there is a 'compatibility' problem between makes of decoder ..... this MAY /did exist to some extent in the earliest days of dcc .... involving timing tolerances but otherwise the differences have mainly been related to gradually improving features ... early decoders only supporting addresses 1-127, and 1 or 2 functions... and programming options.

That said; some designs are better and more tolerant of signal conditions than others -  some designs have better motor control etc. [An exception is the first release of Hornby Basic Decoder which was ..... better not said or seen., and some controllers produce better waveforms than others - I have posted pictures before]

 

Early decoders only offered 14 speed steps - later ones 28/128 which modifies the way that directional lighting is commanded ... which causes lights to go on and off with speed changes or not work all ... if the controller and loco settings don't match.

Some decoders only support upto 16V ... but the full standard is 22-23V

 

There has been a 'difference' between interpretations of the 'standard' in the past - which reveal themselves as follows:

 

Loco decoder addresses in the range 1-127 are assumed to be 'short' addresses by the NMRA, with Lenz/Xpressnet having previously recommended only 1-99 were used as short addresses (matching the 2 digit displays on many controllers)

[Another make allows 0001-0127 to be long addresses by adding the leading zero!]

 

... and the other concerned Accessory decoders - whether '0' or '1' was the FIRST accessory decoder ... which gives the appearance of shifting accessory addresses by 4.

Neither of these is a 'physical' incompatlbity - but can catch people out when changing equipment between layouts with different controllers!  The [re-]'Learn' button avoids problems 8-)  And now accessory decoders are available with 1,2,4,6 or 8 outputs - and not tied to being sequentially numbered - allowing for neater optimised wiring!

 

'Bachmann' badged decoders have mainly been various ESU lokpilots. Early versions only offered short addressing .... then full addressing on later batches.

Hornby Sound decoders were ESU Loksound before they produced their own TTS.

Whatever make of decoder - it IS important to stay within the current limits !

 

Many years of dcc development occured before the mainstream UK manufacturers entered the field - eg ESU Loksound 2, 3, 3.5 .. 4 .....

 

The adoption of WiFi as the wireless transmission method has brought the price of wireless control down, whilst improving the reliability by ising a well established standard.  

 

 

[Pete the Elaner]

7 hours ago, Canley Central said:

I've been told the Hornby Select and Bachmann Dynamis wired controllers only work with their own decoders. Will those cheaper budget controllers be able to program the train tech smart screens anyway?  

 

That is not strictly true.

What we know as 'DCC' is really an abbreviation for NMRA-compliant DCC. Anything which conforms to this standard should work with each other.

Hornby's Select used to have some peculiarities which prevented it from completely conforming to NMRA standards. The latest ones run an updated firmware which may have changed things.

 

Don't let your decoders limit your choice of systems though. I started with a Hornby Select & upgrading to a PowerCab was as much of a revolution as DC to DCC.

I doubt you will have any compatibility issues between decoders & control system, so look for the right control system first.

[traction]

I would go to a shop and try any system BEFORE making a choice.
Everyone has THEIR own system which works for THEM, doesnt mean it will work for you.

The question you've asked has been answered many times before and everyone will have their own favourite system.

 

Go to a good model shop that has systems available to try, I would Take your Train Tech Smart Screens with you so you can hook them up and see how easy different systems handle programming!!

Not every controller which can program CV's is made equal and some can be a pain to program.
 

If I was to go over to DCC now, thats what I would do, test first means you won't be disappointed later.
If going to a shop call them first and let them know what you want to do, it allows them to make time for you.

Same with exhibitions if you cant get to a shop, one it will allow them to take possible controllers with them that your interested in and tell you the best time to get to the stand to try different systems, normally late afternoons when it goes quiet.

 

Saying all of this, the one that springs to mind with a nice clear LCD display that you liked and easy to program CV's is the Sig-naTrak ACE2 controller:-

 

 

https://www.signatrak.co.uk/products/ace-dcc-controller-accessories/dcs2044-ace-15-48

 

I don't have one of these but have had a test of one at Digitrains in Lincoln as they have so many set up on the demo layout.

This is touch screen, so again may not be what you would like hence try everything BEFORE you buy.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2019 by traction
TYPO

[AndrewC]

Everyone has their favourite. Much like people have their preferred manufacturer of car. 

 

My suggestion is to do the following. 

1: work out your budget

2: must have list (mobile device throttles, wired, wireless, etc) 

3: nice to have list

4: test drive!!

5: avoid the "toy" controllers

 

For what it's worth I've been using Digitrax for nearly 25 years. Long story, but if I was starting today, It wouldn't be my first choice. I upgraded with the Digikeijs DR5000 2 years ago. It does all I want it to. Works well with JMRI and WiThrottle (I hate the Z21 app suite but that is personal preference) It is a bit of a Swiss Army Knife of systems but requires a bit more effort in setting it up. If I was doing a small layout and starting out from scratch, it would be the Digikeijs + Roco maus + computer running JMRI + wiThrottle. 

 

 

[Canley Central]

Thank you for all the prompt replies.

 

I was at the Great Electric Train Show, it was ever so busy, trying to penguin my way to the front of a layout, never mind a trade stand was a task, never thought of asking for a demo. I will look at some of the big shops for trying some of the controllers. Great idea.  

 

The Sig-naTrak ACE2 looks a smart bit of kit, quite surprised it was only £249, not sure I'd be needing something that flash. 

 

At a push for just programming the Train Tech Smart Screens before buying a controller does anyone know of a cheap usb interface for plugging in to the PC or other method of programming them? Cheers.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Canley Central

[JDW]

I have a Lenz system on my main layout, and a Sig-na-Track system on my desk for programming, testing, and my little layout, and would happily second @traction's comments. I find it easy to use, well laid out, and the touch screen is better than some other controllers which use push-buttons for speed, plus relatively cheap hand-held add-on's are available that have a simple old-fashioned knob which is still the best option, in my opinion (I prefer my Lenz LH200 hand-held over the more expensive and more functional LH100 for the same reason)

 

Personally, I wouldn't bother with using DCC for points etc, as it's just an extra expense when in most cases a small panel with cheap switches will do the job quite well. Unless... either you are operating from all over the place and don't want to have to walk back to a fixed control panel, or the layout (and thus panel/wiring) is hugely complex and the benefits of just a few wires would far outweigh the extra cost of decoders.

[Phil S]

I an verify that the Multimaus handset(s) are an easy way to program the Train Tech Display - as I have done 4 so far .... held single handed or 2 handed it is just like typing in letters/numbers on a telephone keypad ... it has the same basic keyboard layout, and letters-on-numbers in a cycle with each press as many other devices.   The cabled versions [red='Roco',Grey='Fleischmann'] used to be available on Ebay - taken from starter sets - as complete working dcc sysytems for just 65GBP - including the 10764 power-amplifier box and a power supply -  today's prices on Ebay for buy-it-now range upto about 150GBP.   Starter sets now tend to include the z21Start ... and these are also sold separated from sets.   The black WLAN version  needs a Z21 / z21 /z21 [ or the Digikeijs 5000 ] and are about 85-95GBP for the handset only. A Touchscreen Phone/Tablet can be used in addiiton or alternatively. 

Both the Multimaus and the Z21 app can be tried for free online -> z21.eu

[Nigelcliffe]

1 hour ago, Canley Central said:

 

At a push for just programming the Train Tech Smart Screens before buying a controller does anyone know of a cheap usb interface for plugging in to the PC or other method of programming them? Cheers.

 

Cheapest "off the shelf" computer-to-DCC device is probably a Sprog at about £50, plus £10 for the power supply.

 

Cheapest "DIY but not crazily complicated" is probably an Arduino running the DCC++ code connected to computer.  Ought to possible to build for under £30, possibly under £20.

 

Both will need JMRI/DecoderPro software (free, public domain).

 

 

[RAF96]

Quote

will the controller I get work with all the decoders I already have. (Bachmann and Hornby)  I've been told the Hornby Select and Bachmann Dynamis wired controllers only work with their own decoders. Will those cheaper budget controllers be able to program the train tech smart screens anyway?  

 

Complete and utter tosh these days .... if a decoder or controller is NMRA compliant (not necessarily warranted as not every maker has theirs tested due to cost for the privilege) then they should play happy together. You do get the odd clash of wills, but in general most all work reasonably well together.

 

To program a T-T smart screen at home you need a controller that will allow easy control of F0 to F9 as these are the keys repeatedly used to program in messages and send how you want to control those messages to the smart screen. It is fairly time consuming when writing up to ten messages and defining how they will be displayed.

 

Fortunately a friend of mine has developed an interface to write messages and send controls to the screen more easily via a PC, but this only works with Hornby Elite or eLink controllers at present as they can connect by USB to a PC. In essence you type in your message, press go and the ‘app’ does all the F-key presses for you, much faster than you could do it by hand and saving wear and tear on the controller key pad. At some stage this will be linked to from the smart screen product page for download.

[Nigelcliffe]

1 hour ago, RAF96 said:

 

Fortunately a friend of mine has developed an interface to write messages and send controls to the screen more easily via a PC, but this only works with Hornby Elite or eLink controllers at present as they can connect by USB to a PC. In essence you type in your message, press go and the ‘app’ does all the F-key presses for you, much faster than you could do it by hand and saving wear and tear on the controller key pad. At some stage this will be linked to from the smart screen product page for download.

 

Such a script could be easily written for JMRI (I've written similar scripts for other devices which do it, see the "Zimo Pseudoprogrammer" script within JMRI).   Then it would be available for just about any DCC system with a computer interface, rather than just one niche maker. 

 

- Nigel

 

[Phil S]

Since Hornby use Xpressnet - perhaps the software is already usable by anyone with a PC interface to other Xpressnet equipment - eg with the Lenz USB interface(s)  or possibly some Roco models ... worth downloading and trying. ???

[Canley Central]

8 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

Cheapest "off the shelf" computer-to-DCC device is probably a Sprog at about £50, plus £10 for the power supply.

 

Cheapest "DIY but not crazily complicated" is probably an Arduino running the DCC++ code connected to computer.  Ought to possible to build for under £30, possibly under £20.

 

Both will need JMRI/DecoderPro software (free, public domain).

 

 

Best option for me would probably be picking up a Multimaus Roco if I can source one at around £65, I'd be paying £60 for a Sprog, at least it would be a stand alone system always ready for use. I'm going to have a read into them now.

 

I assume a Multimaus controller would do all I'd need, and be useful for future use in controlling loco's on my layout if required in the future. As I'd rather spend my budget on scenic gadgets than an expensive controller. 

 

Cheers

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, Canley Central said:

Best option for me would probably be picking up a Multimaus Roco if I can source one at around £65, .......

 

Sorry, you're going to be disappointed on the price, if looking for new examples.

As Phil say's above, it used to be possible to obtain a brand new, full MultiMaus system,  i.e. handset, cables, power supply, handbook and "amplifier" (Roco speak for system hub and Booster),  for around £65 - £70 a few years ago.

These were sold by dealers, usually through eBay, having been split from Roco train sets which the dealers sold off as separate items.

Mostly these came from Germany, although a couple of UK based traders were also regularly selling these split train sets.

 

Two things have happened since.

1. The £ to € exchange rate has put the price up.

2. More importantly, Roco stopped including the MultiMaus system in its train sets, replacing it with the newer, basic z21 system.

 

As such, availability of brand new, full MultiMaus DCC systems has become much less over the last 18 months or so.

They are now selling for something north of £120 these days, as supplies dry up.

 

The MultiMaus handset on its own, is still available as a new item though. 

It's included with the basic z21 system in Roco's current range of train sets and some new examples are being sold off from this source.

 

There's always the second and market.

There's a used example on eBay at the moment at a good price, but there are lots of people 'watching" it and a number of bids already, with quite a few days left.

 

Good luck with your search though.

 

Ron

 

 

.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Ron Ron Ron

[Pete the Elaner]

10 hours ago, Canley Central said:

I assume a Multimaus controller would do all I'd need, and be useful for future use in controlling loco's on my layout if required in the future. As I'd rather spend my budget on scenic gadgets than an expensive controller. 

 

After starting with a Hornby Select, I was blown away by how much better a fully featured system really is, so don't narrow your choice at this time.

 

I assume your cryptic location means you are in Kent?

You will be doing yourself a big favour by making a trip to Ipswich to visit Coastal DCC. You will be able to try several for yourself. If you go by train, you can even enjoy class 90 haulage before they get replaced on the GE.

 

You may find that a budget system is just what you want & won't be left wondering if it is a false economy, or you may find that a better system has a feature you will find very useful.

[Canley Central]

I was watching the Roco on eBay myself, its creeping up and has bids in double figures. I think I will go down the Pi-Sprog route as I already have a pi 3b+ not doing anything, then I would have the option to expand as I wish. I understand you can download apps and use your smartphone/tablet for a throttle etc. I've been told a Sprog is like a more advanced elink. 

 

A benefit to the Pi-Sprog is I see a terminal for a programming track. 

And as I am not keen of following programming code instructions  for setting up DCC++ on a pi, I found you can get the software all ready to go on an SD card ready for the pi in either wired or wifi.  Happy days....well fingers crossed. 

 

Any tips or advise on the method I've "currently" chosen I'd find very helpful. 

[Pete the Elaner]

The software you are referring to sounds like JMRI, which is free. It allows you to program decoders in English, so when others talk about adding or subtracing a particular figure to/from CV29 for something, JMRI displays it as a check box.

You will just need a computer to run it on & a cable to connect this to the control system. I already had a Windows PC in my layout room so I usually run it on that, but I have also run it on a PI without a problem. The pre-configured PI I think you are referring to has all the bits you need in the 1 box (wifi access point & DHCP server).

You can launch multiple throttles on JMRI and/or connect to it with another computer or Android device, again with free software. These throttles do not have the look & feel of a proper throttle but you may even prefer them.

 

JMRI does not talk to the locos & accessories directly, but acts as a control interface to the command system. I understand a Sprog is a good command system for programming but have never used one so you may need a booster for it to power trains on the layout. Someone else will have to answer this because I don't know.

[Nigelcliffe]

Sprogs have enough power to run locos on a layout.  Different ones come with different outputs: 1amp, to 3amps.   The limit will be the command station stack size, which is, I think around a dozen locos moving at any one time (can have more stationary,  stack size is the limit of number under active control). 

 

In the case of the Pi-Sprog, there is documentation on the maker's website.   But, even with a plan to use an existing PI-3, I'd still go for the traditional Sprog2 or Sprog3, connected via USB, because it has the option to be used on other hardware.   The USB based Sprogs have the same outputs as the Pi-Sprog, ie. they can swap from programming track to full command station mode. 

 

For the PI-3, regardless of hardware attached, it needs JMRI software.  The simplest way to this is the SD Card image which can be downloaded from Steve Todd's website (Steve also writes the EngineDriver App for Android that connects a phone to JMRI). 
That has the PI operating system, and a copy of JMRI, with all the configuration done to automatically launch JMRI, configured for the hardware connected, changes the PI to a WiFi Access Point, starts the JMRI WiThrottle service (for connecting either Apple or Android smartphones), etc...     All stuff you can do manually, but done for you (and clearly documented). 

 

 

I have USB based Sprogs, I have a PI-3, I've used Steve Todd's image file, and set things up manually.  They all work together just fine.

 

- Nigel

[Canley Central]

13 hours ago, Nigelcliffe said:

Sprogs have enough power to run locos on a layout.  Different ones come with different outputs: 1amp, to 3amps.   The limit will be the command station stack size, which is, I think around a dozen locos moving at any one time (can have more stationary,  stack size is the limit of number under active control). 

 

In the case of the Pi-Sprog, there is documentation on the maker's website.   But, even with a plan to use an existing PI-3, I'd still go for the traditional Sprog2 or Sprog3, connected via USB, because it has the option to be used on other hardware.   The USB based Sprogs have the same outputs as the Pi-Sprog, ie. they can swap from programming track to full command station mode. 

 

For the PI-3, regardless of hardware attached, it needs JMRI software.  The simplest way to this is the SD Card image which can be downloaded from Steve Todd's website (Steve also writes the EngineDriver App for Android that connects a phone to JMRI). 
That has the PI operating system, and a copy of JMRI, with all the configuration done to automatically launch JMRI, configured for the hardware connected, changes the PI to a WiFi Access Point, starts the JMRI WiThrottle service (for connecting either Apple or Android smartphones), etc...     All stuff you can do manually, but done for you (and clearly documented). 

 

 

I have USB based Sprogs, I have a PI-3, I've used Steve Todd's image file, and set things up manually.  They all work together just fine.

 

- Nigel

So the best bet would be the Sprog 2 or 3 then I could program with my windows PC. The USB Sprog will also work with a USB connection to the Pi if I decided to run it that way in my layout room?

 

Is the difference between Sprog 2 and 3 just power?

 

Thanks Nigel

 

 

[Nigelcliffe]

1 hour ago, Canley Central said:

So the best bet would be the Sprog 2 or 3 then I could program with my windows PC. The USB Sprog will also work with a USB connection to the Pi if I decided to run it that way in my layout room?

 

Is the difference between Sprog 2 and 3 just power?

 

 

The Sprog 2 or Sprog 3 will work as you suggest.  Either USB to a Windows PC, or USB to a PI.  (And if you're reasonably computer literate, you can have the same underlying loco data (the roster) on both).  

 

The difference is power output, ie. the max current available for command station mode.   1A should be enough for a small layout in OO with only one or two locos running, or modest setups in N.    2.5A takes in a slightly larger number of locos running, or power hungry Heljan diesels, or O gauge, etc..      There is a difference in price, both in the price of the Sprog device itself, but also in the power supply for the Sprog3 is more expensive than that for a Sprog2. 

 

 

[roy h]

On 15/10/2019 at 16:40, RAF96 said:

 

Complete and utter tosh these days .... if a decoder or controller is NMRA compliant (not necessarily warranted as not every maker has theirs tested due to cost for the privilege) then they should play happy together. You do get the odd clash of wills, but in general most all work reasonably well together.

 

To program a T-T smart screen at home you need a controller that will allow easy control of F0 to F9 as these are the keys repeatedly used to program in messages and send how you want to control those messages to the smart screen. It is fairly time consuming when writing up to ten messages and defining how they will be displayed.

 

Fortunately a friend of mine has developed an interface to write messages and send controls to the screen more easily via a PC, but this only works with Hornby Elite or eLink controllers at present as they can connect by USB to a PC. In essence you type in your message, press go and the ‘app’ does all the F-key presses for you, much faster than you could do it by hand and saving wear and tear on the controller key pad. At some stage this will be linked to from the smart screen product page for download.

Can I ask did the link for the software for fast programming get added to the homepage or is it available elsewhere thanks 

[RAF96]

12 hours ago, roy h said:

Can I ask did the link for the software for fast programming get added to the homepage or is it available elsewhere thanks 

Since Gaugemaster took over the Train-Tech product range links to my review and the smart screen writer have been lost, but this gets you to the writer files, the .exe file being the app and the others info documentation, etc.

 https://1drv.ms/u/s!AhG7bX4H0NOt_VTPajMM54kI0dUt?e=SfCkf2

and this gets you to my review (video clips can be slow to load on some browsers).

http://www.halton96th.org.uk/smart-screen1.html
Edit - note the latest writer is slightly different to the earlier version shown in my review but functionally the same end result.

Edited March 12 by RAF96
More info

[roy h]

Thanks will have a play in the next few days after downloading to the pc.