colliery/industrial track

[Dzine]

Hi Folks, been experimenting with colliery/industrial track and trackside, trying to get a more realistic, badly laid, appearance.  Here are some of the results so far.  Regards Paul

[doilum]

53 minutes ago, Dzine said:

Hi Folks, been experimenting with colliery/industrial track and trackside, trying to get a more realistic, badly laid, appearance.  Here are some of the results so far.  Regards Paul

Oddly enough so am I. 

Not sure about earth colour, though the mud slide looks good.

From memory and the few colour photographs I have, pit yards were a weird grey colour that could look quite bleached in warm dry weather but took on a darker shade when wet. Having a high clay and shale content they were impermeable creating puddles everywhere, often with prismatic oil stains at the surface. Lacking any organic matter, no vegetation grew in it. This an almost lunar landscape and is proving difficult to create in model form

Mechanical debris was everywhere pre 1980s, but coal was money and would only be dumped in designated stockyards. I had found a very good surface dressing but sadly never had enough and my source is gone. My parents had a large coal cellar which was cleared out long ago and filled with junk as each sibling moved house. Just before we sold the house I cleared the space and swept up a mix of coal flour and brick dust. I wish I had more as every attempt to crush coal just produces smaller lumps. Perhaps I could offer to sweep the local coal merchants lorry.  

Once away from the immediate colliery surrounds the railways crossed large areas of undisturbed vegetation like the photo above.

My current attempts involve filling the space below the top of the sleepers with a wet mix of pollyfiller, pva and paint. Wickes have a shade called "liquorice" that seems a good starting point and is available in matchpots. My plan is to go for a rainy day look and hopefully the puddles will offset the greyness.

[Ruston]

@doilum Coal flour?

[doilum]

46 minutes ago, Ruston said:

@doilum Coal flour?

Particles below 0.002mm. Those with a geography /geology background will appreciate the number.

[Fat Controller]

13 minutes ago, doilum said:

Particles below 0.002mm. Those with a geography /geology background will appreciate the number.

Just a thought; rather than using coal, see if you can use one of the 'Patent Fuels' Most of these are simply 'duff', shaped under pressure, and probably can be broken up fairly easily.

Could you enlighten me about the significance of 0.002 mm? It's about forty-six years since Geography and Geology A-levels...

[doilum]

2 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Just a thought; rather than using coal, see if you can use one of the 'Patent Fuels' Most of these are simply 'duff', shaped under pressure, and probably can be broken up fairly easily.

Could you enlighten me about the significance of 0.002 mm? It's about forty-six years since Geography and Geology A-levels...

Particles this small are carried in suspension and only are deposited when the water is static.  Alpine rivers often have a blue/green tint due to rock flour in suspension.

In industry, particles this size are dangerous due to their potential for explosion. Flour mills shared this risk with collieries. Once mechanized mining began dust suppression became a priority. I believe that bags of heavy stone dust were strategically placed on girders to limit the effect of initial explosions.

Thanks for the tip about smokeless alternatives. 

 

[Geordie Exile]

5 minutes ago, doilum said:

 

Thanks for the tip about smokeless alternatives. 

 

There are probably enough lumps in a 25 kilo bag that we could buy one bag between all of us on here

[5050]

I have a plastic tub of the sweepings from an old rubber backed carpet that was taken up years ago.  It is a very fine powder, dark grey in colour and needs sifting through an old fine mesh tea strainer onto a glued surface. I hope to use it around the track on my new layout.

[doilum]

1 hour ago, 5050 said:

I have a plastic tub of the sweepings from an old rubber backed carpet that was taken up years ago.  It is a very fine powder, dark grey in colour and needs sifting through an old fine mesh tea strainer onto a glued surface. I hope to use it around the track on my new layout.

Definitely worth a try. Anything that avoids the look of coal lumps is a good start. Perhaps cement powder over PVA might be worth a try, then spray paint once dry.

[doilum]

1 hour ago, doilum said:

Definitely worth a try. Anything that avoids the look of coal lumps is a good start. Perhaps cement powder over PVA might be worth a try, then spray paint once dry.

I have just returned from collecting my daughter's car from the garage. New inspiration: the dust produced by rubbing down body filler...........

[2mmMark]

Worth having a look at coloured tile grout. It's available in all sorts of useful colours, greys, browns etc.. Any branch of Topps Tiles will have a colour chart of the various options.  It has the benefit of being adhesive, so it could be spread while dry, then misted over with water with a drop of wetting agent.

 

The ash from barbeque briquettes is worth saving, assuming you can get the things to ignite in the first place.

 

Colour is a bit subjective but my choice would be to err on the side of being too light, which can then be modified with a darker overspray. It's much easier to do it this way rather than trying to lighten a too-dark surface.

 

[Ruston]

23 hours ago, doilum said:

Particles below 0.002mm. Those with a geography /geology background will appreciate the number.

I have no idea if it's as fine as that but I made coal dust by smashing up a lump of coal and then grinding it with a pestle and mortar.

[doilum]

49 minutes ago, Ruston said:

I have no idea if it's as fine as that but I made coal dust by smashing up a lump of coal and then grinding it with a pestle and mortar.

May need to find my pestle and mortar. I think there is one somewhere. My improvised kit only produced increasingly smaller angular lumps. It might be the type of coal.

[F-UnitMad]

I saw the article in the current Model Rail issue about this. There's certainly something atmospheric about industrial rough track. My main interest is in American Short Lines, & there have been some of those that have become notorious for their bad track. 

It's something I've tried to copy on a couple of layouts of mine, in O Scale.

Here's the most extreme example of my work. Rail is Code 100, hand-spiked through ties (sleepers) cut from coffee stirrer sticks...

 

 

However, this is pretty exreme & I would advise caution for UK outline models. I have some British O stuff and almost none of it can negotiate this trackwork without derailing. 4-wheel wagons would need some serious chassis compensation to cope with the rise & fall of the rails. These freight cars cope because they're on trucks (bogies!!). The short-wheelbase Switchers in the video can manage it, but longer-wheelbase British 0-6-0 locos can't.

The best advice for laying 'bad' track in OO is to keep testing as you lay it. It actually takes a lot more time & care to lay 'bad' track than it does to lay 'good' track - but get it right and it's hugely rewarding, & great fun to be able to thumb your nose at all the 'traditional' advise for laying track - that it must be perfectly smooth, level and free of kinks.

Yeah, right...

[Dzine]

Hi F-UnitMad, There's some great advice, particularly keep testing as you go, and I'd add with the stock you anticipate using.  Here are some photo's from my test bed.  115632 dipped track, everything including my Bachmann Pannier worked on this, 121115 straight curve, same here too and lastly, 120250 twisted track, good for wagons only.  Kind regards Paul

[Porcy Mane]

On 14/10/2019 at 22:01, doilum said:

I believe that bags of heavy stone dust were strategically placed on girders to limit the effect of initial explosions.

 

Not quite right. Stone dust of a size that wouldn't lodge in lungs was liberally spread about to dilute coal dust. Coal dust barriers were erected in roadways leading to longwall coalface. They consisted of light wooden planks balanced on brackets mounted towards the roof of the roadway. Loose stone dust would be placed on cross-pieces.

Can't remember the regs now but the barrier would consist of light and heavily loaded cross bars about 100 of them that had to be kept a specific distance from a working coalface, If an explosion occurred the shock-wave would dislodge the planks creating a stone dust curtain preventing a flame front igniting any further CH4.

 

[doilum]

38 minutes ago, Porcy Mane said:

 

Not quite right. Stone dust of a size that wouldn't lodge in lungs was liberally spread about to dilute coal dust. Coal dust barriers were erected in roadways leading to longwall coalface. They consisted of light wooden planks balanced on brackets mounted towards the roof of the roadway. Loose stone dust would be placed on cross-pieces.

Can't remember the regs now but the barrier would consist of light and heavily loaded cross bars about 100 of them that had to be kept a specific distance from a working coalface, If an explosion occurred the shock-wave would dislodge the planks creating a stone dust curtain preventing a flame front igniting any further CH4.

 

Thanks for that. Knew of the principal but not the detailed application. If I recall correctly, the stone came in small hessian sacks that were perfect for planting water lilies.

[Porcy Mane]

41 minutes ago, doilum said:

If I recall correctly, the stone came in small hessian sacks that were perfect for planting water lilies.

 

52 Lb paper bags in my day.

 

 

[F-UnitMad]

5 hours ago, Dzine said:

Hi F-UnitMad, There's some great advice, particularly keep testing as you go, and I'd add with the stock you anticipate using.  Here are some photo's from my test bed.  115632 dipped track, everything including my Bachmann Pannier worked on this, 121115 straight curve, same here too and lastly, 120250 twisted track, good for wagons only.  Kind regards Paul

Yes, twisted track is the most difficult to get stuff to run on, especially rigid wheelbase vehicles. Even my US boxcars can struggle if track is twisted too much. The other one is if just one rail is dipped for a short distance. Oh & dipped and curved at the same time is just asking for trouble!!

From the photos, it looks like you're the author of the Model Rail article? (no I didn't actually buy it - just browsed in 'Smiffs'..!! )

[Dzine]

Hi, I think there's always a risk of over exaggerating 'rough' track in model form.  Certainly on twisted track, with Uk stock, I found a single thickness of mounting card the optimum packer, when spaced reasonably on alternate sides of the track.  Hands-up on Model Rail, yep that would be me!  Kind regards Paul 

[doilum]

Recycled track is a good starting point.

[doilum]

Have you seen the photographs posted yesterday in Prototype Discussions?

[rope runner]

I don't really think uneven track looks right in model form, it just looks badly laid and not prototypically distressed - it's something to do with the physics to my eye,  dipped rail joints don't look right it's doubly jarring because often model rail isn't scale height. I'd suggest time is better put into the weathering and surrounding debris of industrial trackwork rather than adding lumps and bumps, this has the added bonus that stock should run reliably on it too. 

 

Just my 2 cents of course 

 

Paul A. 

[doilum]

21 minutes ago, 1whitemoor said:

I don't really think uneven track looks right in model form, it just looks badly laid and not prototypically distressed - it's something to do with the physics to my eye,  dipped rail joints don't look right it's doubly jarring because often model rail isn't scale height. I'd suggest time is better put into the weathering and surrounding debris of industrial trackwork rather than adding lumps and bumps, this has the added bonus that stock should run reliably on it too. 

 

Just my 2 cents of course 

 

Paul A. 

Would certainly agree in the smaller scales. In 7mm it is possible to begin to introduce some variation but smooth running is still a priority. Not only are the rails overscale but the sleepers too. This maybe the place to experiment. Try attacking the underside of the sleepers with some 40 grade sand paper and reduce by half the height. Then cut away the webbing between the sleepers and lay using contact adhesive. If you try and get the sleepers just about straight and flat it should be OK.

It is worth remembering that the photographs were often taken with a telephoto lens which greatly exaggerates the defect.

[F-UnitMad]

3 hours ago, 1whitemoor said:

I don't really think uneven track looks right in model form, it just looks badly laid and not prototypically distressed .....

Depends on how well it's done, & the scenic treatment is equally important.

I got lots of favourable comments when I exhibited this layout a couple of times....

 

The green boxcar isn't derailed, it's on that central track in the above photo.

Edited October 18, 2019 by F-UnitMad
Added 2nd photo.