North Wales in LNWR days?

[1165Valour]

Seeing an image of the LNWR in Conwy made me take an interest in the North Wales line, and I wondered what a layout depicting the line would need to include. I know the Irish Mail used this route, but is there anything else of interest? I think it could be possible to include the Wirral and the GCR at the line's start. Does anyone know of the classes that worked the line around the 1900s?

[Brassey]

All the Webb classes: Coal Engine 0-6-0, Precedent 2-4-0, Cauliflower 0-6-0, Coal Tank 0-6-2T, 2-4-2T's, Whitworth 2-4-0 and of course the Webb compounds.  Later into the 1900's you have 4-4-0 and 4-6-0's.  None of these, except the Coal Tank, are available in 4mm RTR so it would be better consider the kits that are available and those you might want to build.

 

Apart from the Irish traffic via Holyhead there were local passenger and excursion holiday traffic.  There was also goods traffic; to/from Ireland such as butter and local goods and minerals.

 

The GCR had no running rights on the North Wales line being pure LNWR, as far as I know, though there were probably some through carriages.  Traffic originated from Liverpool or Manchester and ran via Chester

[corneliuslundie]

Also cattle traffic from Ireland, which later may have largely switched to Fishguard.

And lots of quarry traffic of various kinds from Penmaenmawr and the Blaenau Festiniog line, copper from Parys Mountain on Anglesey.

Jonathan

Edited October 15, 2019 by corneliuslundie

[1165Valour]

6 hours ago, Brassey said:

All the Webb classes: Coal Engine 0-6-0, Precedent 2-4-0, Cauliflower 0-6-0, Coal Tank 0-6-2T, 2-4-2T's, Whitworth 2-4-0 and of course the Webb compounds.  Later into the 1900's you have 4-4-0 and 4-6-0's.  None of these, except the Coal Tank, are available in 4mm RTR so it would be better consider the kits that are available and those you might want to build.

 

Apart from the Irish traffic via Holyhead there were local passenger and excursion holiday traffic.  There was also goods traffic; to/from Ireland such as butter and local goods and minerals.

 

The GCR had no running rights on the North Wales line being pure LNWR, as far as I know, though there were probably some through carriages.  Traffic originated from Liverpool or Manchester and ran via Chester

Thanks, with the GCR I more meant them making an appearance in the area of the WM&CQR, Borderlands Line, and SH&DR.

Edited October 15, 2019 by GWRSwindon

[webbcompound]

If you are looking at early 1900s then also Bill Baileys and John Hicks were shedded at Mold

 

[1165Valour]

7 hours ago, webbcompound said:

If you are looking at early 1900s then also Bill Baileys and John Hicks were shedded at Mold

 

Thank you! I'd wondered if the John Hicks could be included. 

 

Would it be possible for the Wirral and GCR to make appearances via exchange sidings at Connah's Quay and Chester?

[Compound2632]

There have been some cracking bits of antique film of trains on the North Wales line posted on the London & North Western Railway Society's Facebook group page. You may have to join that group to see them. Lots of locos but also a superb array of carriages - diners of course, and plenty of 42 ft carriages. In 4 mm scale, London Road Models is your friend but I don't think anybody currently does a diner in any shape or form.

 

 

 

 

[Brassey]

On 15 October 2019 at 08:34, corneliuslundie said:

Also cattle traffic from Ireland, which later may have largely switched to Fishguard.

 

Unless I am greatly mistaken, the bulk of the Irish cattle traffic went through Birkenhead.

[Brassey]

12 hours ago, GWRSwindon said:

Would it be possible for the Wirral and GCR to make appearances via exchange sidings at Connah's Quay and Chester?

Any Goods traffic destined for GCR lines and vice versa could have been marshalled via goods facilities at said stations.  

 

I do not know whether the GCR had access to the goods yards at Connah's Quay or Chester.  

 

However, I think it would have been unlikely that goods from Ireland destined for Great Central lines would have been sent via the LNWR and Holyhead when the Great Central itself had a major presence at Birkenhead which also served Ireland.

[Compound2632]

41 minutes ago, Brassey said:

Unless I am greatly mistaken, the bulk of the Irish cattle traffic went through Birkenhead.

 

I wonder if that reflects a concentration of traffic with rationalisation in later days. I would have thought the LNWR would have been vigorously competing for any class of Irish traffic, either through Holyhead or Liverpool. Certainly the Midland was in the cattle trade at Heysham.

 

Looking through LNWR Wagons Vol. 2, I find D19 butter vans branded "To be returned to Holyhead" but meat vans, ventilated or refrigerated, are marked for return to Liverpool and banana vans, to Manchester - to me this indicates that perishable traffic originating in Ireland would go via Holyhead. 

 

[Brassey]

I don't have my sources in front of me but IIRC, cattle was sent on the hoof to Birkenhead where it was slaughtered and the fast LNWR meat trains left from Birkenhead.  I think the one to Smithfield was called "The Meat".  Of course my memory could be playing tricks.  The LNWR had a major presence at Birkenhead through the "Birkenhead Joint" jointly with the Great Western.

 

Substantial Banana traffic went through Garston Docks Liverpool after that was built which would have avoided the Manchester Ship Canal.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Brassey said:

I don't have my sources in front of me but IIRC, cattle was sent on the hoof to Birkenhead where it was slaughtered and the fast LNWR meat trains left from Birkenhead.  I think the one to Smithfield was called "The Meat".  Of course my memory could be playing tricks.  The LNWR had a major presence at Birkenhead through the "Birkenhead Joint" jointly with the Great Western.

 

Substantial Banana traffic went through Garston Docks Liverpool after that was built which would have avoided the Manchester Ship Canal.

 

Clearly depends on date - once you've checked your sources it would be interesting to know from what dates the traffic was routed thus. Insulated meat vans were certainly being branded for return to Liverpool as late as 1918 (though that will have been for transatlantic traffic) and banana vans to Manchester after 1907. I read that the last of the docks at Garston, Stalbridge Dock, opened in 1909.

 

On the other hand, I'm coming round to Birkenhead for cattle on the hoof as I can see that the facilities at Holyhead might be a bit limited for this, though looking at the OS map, the Inner Harbour seems to have had substantial goods traffic facilities.

 

But undoubtedly the most important traffic at Holyhead was the mail.

[Brassey]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

but I don't think anybody currently does a diner in any shape or form.

 

Modellers World did the 12-wheel LNWR diner which kit moved to 247 Developments under the previous owner but was not transferred to the new business.  Jol Wilkinson built one recently for London Road and I have one in the kit mountain.

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Brassey

[Compound2632]

20 minutes ago, Brassey said:

 

"the 12-wheel LNWR diner"

 

 

"the"? - they were multifarious and I think those film clips show that two or three, of different diagrams, are needed for the Irish Mail!

Edited October 16, 2019 by Compound2632

[Brassey]

There was also a Llandudno business club train that commuted city type gents to and from Manchester.  This might have included a diner (or two) too.

[Brassey]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

"the"? - they were multifarious and I think those film clips show that two or three, of different diagrams, are needed for the Irish Mail!

 

With my pragmatic head on, I think the Irish Mail would have been up to 12 coaches long.  It is quite an undertaking to build a layout large enough in 4mm to accommodate such a train so some compromise might be needed so one dining car might suffice.

 

Thankfully the Irish Mail did not run between Shrewsbury and Hereford and the marshalling diagrams I have show only one diner per train on my line so one LNWR will do me.  Of course I also have to build a GWR dining car too.  This was in a train made up of GWR stock that started at Liverpool Lime Street.  This would have run to Shrewsbury behind an LNWR loco; quite a sight!

 

Due to my North to West obsession of course, I omitted the fact in previous post that Holyhead trains also started at Euston!  Some of these may well have included through carriages from some of the Southern railways.  Also foreign excursions to the North Wales resorts of which the L&Y springs to mind though there may well have been others.  The fine detail of all of this will be available in the LNWR Society archives.

[corneliuslundie]

Thanks for the correction re cattle traffic. I have to admit that it was an assumption based on the fact that the GWR wanted to poach  the traffic and move it to Fishguard.

One other traffic I forgot was slate from the two big mine complexes and their narrow gauge railways down to the coast via the Penrhyn and Padarn Railways. Though some of this went by sea.

Jonathan

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, Brassey said:

 

With my pragmatic head on, I think the Irish Mail would have been up to 12 coaches long.  It is quite an undertaking to build a layout large enough in 4mm to accommodate such a train so some compromise might be needed so one dining car might suffice.

 

 

I believe that's the Irish Mail seen crossing the Britannia Bridge in the first film clip. It certainly has the latest rolling stock in the form of cove roof carriages, along with some older vehicles.

 

There was posted on the LNWRSoc's facebook page a while ago a superb 1890s photo of the up Irish Mail entering Crewe behind a Greater Britain - non-corridor 42ft carriages, every one a composite and no two the same!

[RLWP]

<gratuitous image of Greater Britain>

 

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by RLWP

[Brassey]

July 13th to September 30th 1912 12.5pm from Holyhead.

 

Parcel Van - London

Post Office (45ft) - London

Break Van (50ft) (X) - London

First Class (57ft) (X) - London

Composite (57ft) (X) - London

1st Class Luncheon Car (65ft) - London

3rd Class Luncheon Car (65ft) - London

Composite (57ft) (X) - London

Third Class (57ft) (X) - London

Break Third (57ft) (X) - London

Break Composite (X) - Birmingham

Composite (X) - Manchester

Break Third (57ft) - Manchester

 

(X) = Corridor

 

Manchester coaches detached at Chester

Birmingham Coach detached at Crewe

 

All LNWR

 

[Compound2632]

Now, the thing to remember with that is, it tells you what accommodation the traffic people wanted. It tells you nothing about the external appearance of the vehicles or which specific diagram - any carriage meeting that description could be used. The result would be the eclectic mix of roof profiles and, from 1912, panelling styles (diners always an exception) that characterised a LNWR express.

[sir douglas]

wasnt there some early 1900's footage online somewhere of the north wales coat line taken from the window of an express

[Compound2632]

@sir douglas, I suspect what you have in mind may be the second video in my post above.

[webbcompound]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Now, the thing to remember with that is, it tells you what accommodation the traffic people wanted. It tells you nothing about the external appearance of the vehicles or which specific diagram - any carriage meeting that description could be used. The result would be the eclectic mix of roof profiles and, from 1912, panelling styles (diners always an exception) that characterised a LNWR express.

 

All the 57ft coaches are eliptical roof (introduced from 1907 onwards), though by 1912 some are the new toplight style panelling. The diners are clerestory as the only eliptical roof diners run on the American to Riverside.

[Brassey]

Unlike other companies, the LNWR did not have an abundance of diagrams but built in vast quantities.  So, for example, there was only one diagram 6 wheel break van (D385) built in significant numbers.  IIRC there was only one diagram of 57ft corridor break third (D307) and in modelling terms the only source of that is Stevensons Carriages.  Again I think there was only one 50foot break van diagram which was contemporary with the 50foot plastic carriages marketed by Ratio; again Stevensons for that as too the Parcel and Post Office vans.