North Wales in LNWR days?

[Compound2632]

7 hours ago, webbcompound said:

 

All the 57ft coaches are eliptical roof (introduced from 1907 onwards), though by 1912 some are the new toplight style panelling. The diners are clerestory as the only eliptical roof diners run on the American to Riverside.

 

If it is possible to deduce that from the carriage marshalling instructions, then good. There were some diagrams of cove-roof 57ft corridor carriages.

[sir douglas]

sorry, i skipped past that post while reading the thread and completely forgot to come back and watch them but yes that it

[webbcompound]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

If it is possible to deduce that from the carriage marshalling instructions, then good. There were some diagrams of cove-roof 57ft corridor carriages.

the majority of cove roof 57ft were double ended brake composites (50) which tended to be used as through carriages. Two were diagrammed for the London/Birkenhead service, the rest appear to be made for london to Manchester and Liverpool services. I'm not sure (though I would love to see more detailed info if it exists) that the cove roof 57ft coaches reached the Irish mail before the ellipticals were produced. The number of coaches required for the Manchester/Liverpool services in the 1906 marshalling handbook seems pretty similar to the number produced (around 20 rakes which operated paired as far as Crewe so only 10 "trains" with half going on to each destination)  Of course after WW1 the diagrams were radically altered with much mixing of types, so at that point the appearance could become very different.

[Brassey]

18 hours ago, sir douglas said:

wasnt there some early 1900's footage online somewhere of the north wales coat line taken from the window of an express

 

Here is some LNWR footage Racing the Scotch Express taken from a window.  This also features interior footage of the dining car.  In the latter part it moves onto Caledonian rails.

 

 

[Poggy1165]

The GC's Buckley Railway made a physical connection with the LNWR at Connah's Quay. However, the Buckley Railway was extremely primitive, with steep gradients and a very tight loading gauge and only the smallest of GC engines worked over it. (Actually, pre-group, mostly ex WM&CQ classes.) So I suspect only local traffic would have been exchanged, for example wagons from the various Buckley brickworks onto the LNW. You would certainly not see any of the big GC loco classes at Connah's Quay.

[Compound2632]

In the opening shots, leaving Euston, we see the 1907/8 elliptical-roofed "diner" style vestibuled carriages built for the 2 o'clock; then out in the country, the first four vehicles at least are cove-roofed stock, then once we're onto the Caledonian, it's a real mixed bag of older carriages including, I think, a Caledonian carriage leading.

 

Going back to @webbcompound, and looking through the (many and varied) diagrams listed in Jenkinson, LNWR Carriages, I find the 40 double-ended tricomposites to D208 but also 57ft cove roofed corridor firsts D95, brake firsts D127, composites D134, thirds, D264, and brake thirds D310/311, a total of 82 vehicles built 1906/7, along with 8 tea cars D47 and 10 50ft brake comosites D214. The first train in the Britannia Bridge film I linked to includes half-a-dozen cove roof carriages, assuming this is the Irish Mail, that's not surprising if the film is c. 1907 as advertised: brand new carriages going to a prestige express.

[1165Valour]

5 hours ago, Poggy1165 said:

The GC's Buckley Railway made a physical connection with the LNWR at Connah's Quay. However, the Buckley Railway was extremely primitive, with steep gradients and a very tight loading gauge and only the smallest of GC engines worked over it. (Actually, pre-group, mostly ex WM&CQ classes.) So I suspect only local traffic would have been exchanged, for example wagons from the various Buckley brickworks onto the LNW. You would certainly not see any of the big GC loco classes at Connah's Quay.

Thank you, if you want the bigger GC engines, I take it the closest place would be Chester where the LNWR met the CLC?

[Compound2632]

19 minutes ago, GWRSwindon said:

Thank you, if you want the bigger GC engines, I take it the closest place would be Chester where the LNWR met the CLC?

 

There wasn't much in the way of "meeting":

 

 

I don't think you'd have got big GC engines there. The place where the LNWR and MS&L really trod on each other's toes was Manchester London Road - with the Midland squeezing in too. That got much easier after Central opened in 1880, though I believe the MS&L / GC retained a presence at London Road.

[PenrithBeacon]

Wrexham was another 'meeting place'.

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There wasn't much in the way of "meeting":

 

 

I don't think you'd have got big GC engines there. The place where the LNWR and MS&L really trod on each other's toes was Manchester London Road - with the Midland squeezing in too. That got much easier after Central opened in 1880, though I believe the MS&L / GC retained a presence at London Road.

London Road was jointly owned by the M&B/SM&A and their successors as was the MSJ&A.

Wrexham was another meeting place, but probably not with the larger engines.

[Brassey]

2 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Wrexham was another meeting place, but probably not with the larger engines.

I wonder how the LNWR arrived at Wrexham?

[RLWP]

50 minutes ago, Brassey said:

I wonder how the LNWR arrived at Wrexham?

 

Bus?

 

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Map/index.php

 

Richard

Edited October 18, 2019 by RLWP

[webbcompound]

20 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

@webbcompound The first train in the Britannia Bridge film I linked to includes half-a-dozen cove roof carriages, assuming this is the Irish Mail, that's not surprising if the film is c. 1907 as advertised: brand new carriages going to a prestige express.

from the 1906 Marshalling Instructions it looks as if these carriages were used, but only on the 11.00 am from Euston, balanced on the 3.15 from Holyhead. the rake was BT/T/S/D/D/F/BF There were several brake Tri-compos attached at various points.  so probably only a couplre of rakes used for this service. The 8.30am (balanced at 12.5 noon) was 50ft corridor arc rooof tricomposite with diners in the middle, and a 50ft break at each end. the local traffic was more likely to be assorted six wheelers, with 42ft or 50ft 8 wheelers from Manchester . The postal trains were night time so depends how you might run your layout whether they would appear.

 

Regarding transfer goods from the WM&CQ photos show LNWR single and double plank wagons being loaded at brickworks along the Buckley line. These would have reached the LNWR via the exchange sidings behind the down line at Connahs Quay (LNWR) statioin. Contents would be mostly industrial brickwork in a variety of shades and specialist furness ceramics in a variety of shapes. the WM&CQ and Buckley Traders brick container wagons would not have made it to the main line, only  being used between the brickworks and the Quay. There was a link between the LNWR sidings towards on the up line Shotton, and the WM&CQ at Connah's Quay but it seems likely that this would only have been used for very occasional loads routed via the LNWR to the Quay, there being little reason to ofload from shipping at Connahs Quay destined for LNWR routes as there were better transhipment points such as Deganwy. You could have WM&CQ/GCR traffic between Wrexham and Bidston crossing the main LNWR at right angles on the bridge at Shotton.

[ikks]

What an interesing and fascinating thread ......thank you folks...............Mike

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, webbcompound said:

from the 1906 Marshalling Instructions it looks as if these carriages were used, but only on the 11.00 am from Euston, balanced on the 3.15 from Holyhead. the rake was BT/T/S/D/D/F/BF There were several brake Tri-compos attached at various points.  so probably only a couplre of rakes used for this service. The 8.30am (balanced at 12.5 noon) was 50ft corridor arc rooof tricomposite with diners in the middle, and a 50ft break at each end. the local traffic was more likely to be assorted six wheelers, with 42ft or 50ft 8 wheelers from Manchester . The postal trains were night time so depends how you might run your layout whether they would appear.

 

 

From photos, it does look to have been frequently necessary to strengthen these sets with older carriages - as seen in the film. Even photos of the 2 o'clock show those magnificent 12-wheelers somewhat incongruously flanked by 50 ft arc roofed corridor carriages - presumably 8'6" wide WCJS vehicles.

 

I've not been able to identify the vehicles in the train in the film by diagram, but there seem to be three 57ft cove roof vehicles leading, all seen from the corridor side - they could well be BT/T/S - three 12-wheel diners, then three more cove roof carriages, the middle one of which is a full brake with guards compartment at one end, i.e. D373 or D376? The tail of the train is mostly non-corridor - a six-whheler, a 50ft corridor with centre brake compartment, and a couple of 42ft-ers.

[webbcompound]

There may well be other layouts depicting the Chester to Holyhead line, but here is my beginnings of an imperfect take on it c1905. To be awkward though  the LNWR main line is actually just the vision blocker at the back of what I hope will be a passable impression of the actual Quay at Connah's Quay. The ends of the LNWR station will appear to the left of the Buckley line bridge.

[Brassey]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

frequently necessary to strengthen these sets with older carriages

 

What appear to be strengthen carriages are likely to be through carriages to other destinations which by necessity were probably break composites and older than the more prestigious stock reserved for the forward London section.  There is no mention in the Marshalling Diagrams I have of strengthening and the planned 12/13 carriages was probably at the upper limit of what was allowed given the locos of the day.

 

All the stock would arrive on the day via balancing trains specified in the Marshalling Diagrams.  The concept that these were totally fixed rakes is misleading.  The Manchester and Birmingham sections arrived separately as did the restaurant cars from the rest of the train.  And the parcels/postal stock again arrived on different trains all listed in the Marshalling diagrams.  So the Down trains looked different to the Up trains.  

 

Because of the complexity of organising all this, particularly taking into account the need to co-ordinate with foreign railways and the arrival/departures of steamers at ports, the timetables and format of trains remained fairly fixed over the years.  For example there is little difference between the diagrams I have for 1910 and 1912

 

What this means for modellers is that no two long distance express trains looked the same which could be positive or negative depending on which side of the fence you are.

[ChrisN]

On 18/10/2019 at 12:55, RLWP said:

 

Bus?

 

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Map/index.php

 

Richard

 

Hopefully not hijacking the thread, but this is a question about the LNWR in North Wales.  

 

In the map in the link all the Cambrian Lines are shown, but only as thin lines.  Is this where they sent through coaches, or rather where they had running powers?  They were never allowed to exercise them on the Cambrian as the powers were there in case the Cambrian did not supply an engine to convey LNWR stock, and the Cambrian made sure that never happened.

 

Like most maps it does not have Traeth Mawr on it, which is a shame as LNWR locos have definitely been seen there as building 1895 Cambrian locos is a long term project.

[RLWP]

17 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

 

Hopefully not hijacking the thread, but this is a question about the LNWR in North Wales.  

 

In the map in the link all the Cambrian Lines are shown, but only as thin lines.  Is this where they sent through coaches, or rather where they had running powers?  They were never allowed to exercise them on the Cambrian as the powers were there in case the Cambrian did not supply an engine to convey LNWR stock, and the Cambrian made sure that never happened.

 

Like most maps it does not have Traeth Mawr on it, which is a shame as LNWR locos have definitely been seen there as building 1895 Cambrian locos is a long term project.

 

My understanding is that the thin lines are where the LNWR had running rights. I'll ask on the LNWRS forum

 

Interesting question

 

Richard

[RLWP]

16 hours ago, RLWP said:

 

My understanding is that the thin lines are where the LNWR had running rights. I'll ask on the LNWRS forum

 

Interesting question

 

Richard

 

I have also posed the question on the LNWRS Facebook group, which is rather more active

[Brassey]

The key to the map is missing but it might have been helpful as it somewhat confusing.  Bristol is shown which the LNWR never reached but it too was accessible by through carriage but so too was Penzance not shown.  Scotland is omitted which was on the West Coast Joint route north of Carlisle.

[RLWP]

1 hour ago, Brassey said:

The key to the map is missing but it might have been helpful as it somewhat confusing.  Bristol is shown which the LNWR never reached but it too was accessible by through carriage but so too was Penzance not shown.  Scotland is omitted which was on the West Coast Joint route north of Carlisle.

 

I'm not sure of the source of that particular map, it's clearly from one of the many pieces of LNWR publicity printed by McCorquodale . I suspect it has been selected for the LNWRS website because it's relatively compact

 

There are many others, for instance:

 

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Sales/map.php

 

The answer appears to be that keen to make the LNWR look as impressive as possible, railways that included through working for LNWR carriages is included. It's much the same for any of the pre-grouping companies, a GWR map would similarly extensive

 

Richard

[1165Valour]

54 minutes ago, RLWP said:

 

I'm not sure of the source of that particular map, it's clearly from one of the many pieces of LNWR publicity printed by McCorquodale . I suspect it has been selected for the LNWRS website because it's relatively compact

 

There are many others, for instance:

 

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/Sales/map.php

 

The answer appears to be that keen to make the LNWR look as impressive as possible, railways that included through working for LNWR carriages is included. It's much the same for any of the pre-grouping companies, a GWR map would similarly extensive

 

Richard

Interesting that the Varsity Line isn't included on this map.

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, GWRSwindon said:

Interesting that the Varsity Line isn't included on this map.

 

It's there - red line from Oxford through Bletcley to Cambridge, with branch to Banbury. Next up from the Aylesbury branch.

[Brassey]

I have found the original map in a 1912 LNWR timetable in amongst adverts at the back.  There is no key on the original either thus the purpose of the map is to show the distance of principal stations from London. Having worked in publishing, I can assume that McC used this simple map as a “filler” to take up ad space they failed to sell.  As an historical record of the entire LNWR system it has its faults. One can assume the LNWRS chose it for their website because it is mono and relatively simple.   

 

At the very back of the timetable there are colour fold out maps that are far more detailed 

[1165Valour]

By the way, does anyone know if Peter E. Baughan ever wrote a Volume II for his study of the Chester & Holyhead Railway? It seems he only wrote the first volume.

 

@Brassey @webbcompound

Edited November 3, 2019 by GWRSwindon