Locomotion & Rails of Sheffield announce SE&CR D Class

[Roy Langridge]

6 minutes ago, 3rd Rail Exile said:

 

In my case, dexterity is failing more rapidly than eyesight, so fine detail is "viewable but not do-able". 

 

Unfortunately, now that the omission of the lining on top of the splashers has been pointed out, I now can't stop noticing the lining on the cab front suddenly stopping somewhere it shouldn't.  But where would be a "better" place for it to stop?  Adjacent to the "point" in the lining on the lower front cab side perhaps?  Looking at the photo of the real thing in the NRM on page 1 of this thread it might be possible to devise something more "natural-looking" than the current abrupt end. 

 

 

I get quite frankly fed up with the constant jibes at people should fix every problem without consideration to why they can't. I will gladly fit sound / lights to my locos, build card structures, do scenic work, I am currently modifying a set of coaches to represent some of the Network Rail yellow fleet, making them as close to prototype as possible, but I cannot do the really fine work anymore. Does that make me any less a modeller? 

 

So before people have a dig with the "do some modelling", "fix it yourself", "it isn't hard" comments, perhaps they should try living in other people shoes (or in my case with their fingers) first.

 

Roy

[GreenGiraffe22]

Get a plain black one, no lining to worry about :p

[Oldddudders]

13 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

I get quite frankly fed up with the constant jibes at people should fix every problem without consideration to why they can't. I will gladly fit sound / lights to my locos, build card structures, do scenic work, I am currently modifying a set of coaches to represent some of the Network Rail yellow fleet, making them as close to prototype as possible, but I cannot do the really fine work anymore. Does that make me any less a modeller? 

 

So before people have a dig with the "do some modelling", "fix it yourself", "it isn't hard" comments, perhaps they should try living in other people shoes (or in my case with their fingers) first.

 

Roy

But Paul isn't having a go at people like you. He is pointing to the nitpickers who are shy of doing any basic modelling, but expect RTR locos to be perfect - and not under any circs to cost more than £100. 

 

My suspicion is that Dennis has wisely omitted to tell us that the detail could be provided - but at a cost which would make the model far too expensive for all but an affluent few.

[Roy Langridge]

1 minute ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

Get a plain black one, no lining to worry about :p

 

Not actually my era but they look lovely so this is more of a show-piece. I am getting whatever one gets chosen as a present as I said I didn't mind.

Roy

[Roy Langridge]

6 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

But Paul isn't having a go at people like you. He is pointing to the nitpickers who are shy of doing any basic modelling, but expect RTR locos to be perfect - and not under any circs to cost more than £100. 

 

 

Sorry, but that is not what comes over, given the context of this thread it seemed more of a don't moan and fix it yourself comment. Working on getting lining on a splasher would be beyond what I can now do.

 

I have been accused of nit-picking in the Class 33 Heljan thread for point out that they have a) forgotten to paint something and b) put the nameplate in the wrong place. Neither to me are nit-picking - they are fundamental errors that should not have been missed.

 

Cost is what it is. 4 of the last 6 locos I have ordered / purchased have been £250+.

Roy

 

 

Edited September 15, 2020 by Roy Langridge

[Oldddudders]

21 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

Cost is what it is. 4 of the last 6 locos I have ordered / purchased have been £250+.

Tell me about it. The last loco I bought, an OO kit-built 4-4-0, cost me just over £1500 by the time it had been built and painted in a simpler livery than the SECR D. But it is of course unique. 

[Jack P]

11 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

But it is of course unique

 

Cue the RTR release? 

Edited September 15, 2020 by Jack P

[Oldddudders]

13 minutes ago, Jack P said:

 

Cue the RTR release? 

Unlikely. None preserved, and not particularly well-regarded after Grouping by comparison with other companies' 4-4-0s.

[Compound2632]

22 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

Unlikely. None preserved, and not particularly well-regarded after Grouping by comparison with other companies' 4-4-0s.

 

I didn't have you down as a LNWR modeller.

[Oldddudders]

Just now, Compound2632 said:

 

I didn't have you down as a LNWR modeller.

Correct, Sherlock!

[Tiny151]

I'd echo the mild disappointment in the lining decision. I'd certainly rather a visible overlap or minor misalignment than the omission of quite a notable piece of decoration. I can't count the number of models in my collection with boiler bands made up of off centre striping and two sides that don't quite marry up at the top, would this be anything more dramatic? Small imperfections tend to blend away at normal viewing distance, complete absences not so much.

 

I'm put in mind of the Hornby streamlined Duchess where the lining over the complex front end shape seemed to be made up of a few passes, that is judging by the slight overlaps visible on extremely close inspection (and admittedly a particularly missaligned example I recall being posted here upon release).

 

I assume that samples of the D have already been attempted with the lining and found to be unsatisfactory, so I'm sure Rails and co. are making what they feel are the best choices for the model, but maybe a sudden inspirational solution will arise from the factory. I'll await the final samples before making my decision on an order.

[PaulRhB]

3 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

Why does the latter make you chuckle? My fingers don't work very well as I get older and fine detail is unfortunately now beyond me. Not funny at all from my perspective.

The comment was only aimed at those who haven’t tried and don’t feel they should have to but moan like mad when there is a simple value choice of not to buy if you disapprove. 

As you say there are valid reasons of dexterity but at the end of the day they had to make a decision on what was feasible at the factory. 
I do various fixing and fettling jobs for friends who are too scared to do anything to detailed models or simply can no longer see well enough to do it so I’m not having a pop at them either. 
Rails/Dapol have said they can’t do it and no one else is likely to do the same model so the option would be to commission one of the transfer specialists to produce the decal if you are prepared to pay the extra that would have to be included in the rtr price anyway. 

 

1 hour ago, Tiny151 said:

'd certainly rather a visible overlap or minor misalignment than the omission of quite a notable piece of decoration.

Dapol have probably balanced that against pages of howls of protest of those who would post pictures like a trophy they’d discovered though  

 

[PaulRhB]

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

How do they print boiler bands ?

is it not the similar ?

 

(genuine question, dont shoot).

Yes but I’m guessing from Dennis’ response that it’s the matching between the convex splasher top and the concave sweep between them that is the issue. I asked a similar question years ago and was told they use a pad to print the lining on most locos and where there’s a transition between the two curves you can get a smudge if you print it in one go so the solution is to print it in two goes and then registration is essential or you get the mismatch mentioned. 

[Roy Langridge]

27 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Yes but I’m guessing from Dennis’ response that it’s the matching between the convex splasher top and the concave sweep between them that is the issue. I asked a similar question years ago and was told they use a pad to print the lining on most locos and where there’s a transition between the two curves you can get a smudge if you print it in one go so the solution is to print it in two goes and then registration is essential or you get the mismatch mentioned. 

 

Is registration really that hard these days though? I am thinking about those really complex liveries where multiple colours are overlaid and they are normally spot on.

 

Roy

[The Stationmaster]

14 hours ago, Bluebell Model Railway said:

 

 That's a bit disappointing I saw this on the photo and looked a bit unfinished not something I would be expecting from a high end model... 

Surely there is a way around the complex shape having seen various livery applications at factors... 

 

I am starting to have concerns... 

Perhaps you could get a quote from a professional model maker to see just how much o it would cost to do that?   I'd  bet good money that a professional will charge a lotta dosh for something as complicated as that because it has to be done absolutely right with no errors.  I'm quite sure the factory could probably do the same but with the complexity of the factory printing process and the room for problems (as outlined by Dennis) I suspect that the reject rate would simply make the model either unaffordable for us or not viable for Locomotion (or both).  Having long wanted to see, and lobbied for, a model of this engine getting the NCIM treatment I'm not going to let something like this make me ask for my deposit to be returned - in just the same way as I didn't ask for a refund when they got the colour of the RA disc on 3717 wrong (although that did mean it matched the error on the last repaint of the real one).

 

All of our model railway purchases are 100% discretionary spending and none of them are 'requirements' - they are simply satisfying some sort of personal need and the choice to buy, or not buy, is ours.  And, as ever, with what is in reality a mass produced model there will be compromises and we could always address this one by only ever looking at the model from a viewing angle which does not reveal the tops of the splashers.  Or we take it to a pro painter and in all likelihood match or exceed the original purchase price to get that bit done to our personal satisfaction.

 

PS Just for the record I do like to do various things to r-t-r models and indeed try to get modelling done the way I would like but at my age my eyesight is not as good as it was (various aids for that fortunately), I suffer from intermittent essential tremors (look it up - then think about using a soldering iron if it kicks off), and occasional goes of arthritis in both hands (not usually at the same time so I can use one hand to try to get the fingers on the other pointing in the right direction) but I'm still prepared to have a go if I can and not use them as excuses.  No need for sympathy - tempus fugit and that's my lot and I'm not the first to suffer from any or all of those little inconveniences and still try to be as adroit as I once was.

Edited September 15, 2020 by The Stationmaster

[PaulRhB]

9 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

Is registration really that hard these days though? I am thinking about those really complex liveries where multiple colours are overlaid and they are normally spot on.

 

Roy

It depends on what machinery they have I guess. Bachmann couldn’t do the complex faded livery transitions until relatively recently because of the process required and they didn’t like the slightly coarse ‘inkjet print’ quality that others were using. 
I guess if you insisted on it the factory just pays for the machine by adding a huge lump on to pay for it outright to save risk and that makes it uneconomical for one model. 
I’m basing my guesses on similar processes used in industry I had experience of a few years ago through a friend. If they needed production in hundreds of thousands to make it work economically then I can see why a few thousand models would mean several years and models committed to do it at a reasonable price vs the factory saying we want it all upfront to reduce risk. 

[Roy Langridge]

12 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

PS Just for the record I do like to do various things to r-t-r models and indeed try to get modelling done the way I would like but at my age my eyesight is not as good as it was (various aids for that fortunately), I suffer from intermittent essential tremors (look it up - then think about using a soldering iron if it kicks off), and occasional goes of arthritis in both hands (not usually at the same time so I can use one hand to try to get the fingers on the other pointing in the right direction) but I'm still prepared to have a go if I can and not use them as excuses.  No need for sympathy - tempus fugit and that's my lot and I'm not the first to suffer from any or all of those little inconveniences and still try to be as adroit as I once was.

 

As you know essential tremor is a horrible thing and not really understood by many people. My dad suffers with it and we have been told there is a possibility that my sister and may inherit. She is already showing signs and I have days when I wonder if I am - the problem is knowing that you may get it leaves you watching for it.

 

All the best,

 

Roy 

[Compound2632]

Here's an aftermarket opportunity for an enterprising manufacturer of waterslide transfers. 

[Otis JB]

-Post removed, explained later in thread -

Edited October 22, 2020 by Otis JB

[Otis JB]

12 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

I get quite frankly fed up with the constant jibes at people should fix every problem without consideration to why they can't. I will gladly fit sound / lights to my locos, build card structures, do scenic work, I am currently modifying a set of coaches to represent some of the Network Rail yellow fleet, making them as close to prototype as possible, but I cannot do the really fine work anymore. Does that make me any less a modeller? 

 

So before people have a dig with the "do some modelling", "fix it yourself", "it isn't hard" comments, perhaps they should try living in other people shoes (or in my case with their fingers) first.

 

Roy

 

I agree wholeheartedly. While I will not be swayed by 'small' omissions to the model as there clearly isn't any real alternative, I think it is perfectly fair to critique and point out flaws whether there is something better on the market or like in most cases, not. We are the people who will be spending our hard-earned cash on these items after all and sitting back and accepting what is served to us isn't in our best interests, or those of the manufacturer either. Circa £200 is a substantial amount to pay for any model, whether you think it is fair or not. I know that for circa £200, I expect to get a very good quality and accurate product that hasn't cut many corners and I won't be quiet about it if I don't think that's what I'll be getting. In my opinion, that's a more than reasonable expectation for the consumer to make. 

[Ian Hargrave]

9 hours ago, Otis JB said:

 

And we all know how well Dapol have handled complex decoration on recent models *cough* *cough*

So please evidence this swipe .Which specific models are you using as examples ? If you are referring to steam outline OO....which is what this thread is about...at this moment you have a choice of two directly on the market: namely the B4 and the Rails Terrier.Otherwise this is a damaging and sweeping generalisation of questionable value.

 

 

 

[Roy Langridge]

15 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

So please evidence this swipe .Which specific models are you using as examples ? If you are referring to steam outline OO....which is what this thread is about...at this moment you have a choice of two directly on the market: namely the B4 and the Rails Terrier.Otherwise this is a damaging and sweeping generalisation of questionable value.

 

 

Now, that would kill most of the posts on the forum  

 

I keep hearing how bad Hornby quality control is, but I have only ever returned 1 loco in over 30 years of buying them, and it is not that have had to go around fixing lots of problems without return.

 

As for Dapol, the colours can be a bit iffy (particularly BR Blue) and they had the registration error on the 68, other than that, I thought they generally did really well.

 

Roy

[Ian Hargrave]

6 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

Now, that would kill most of the posts on the forum  

 

I keep hearing how bad Hornby quality control is, but I have only ever returned 1 loco in over 30 years of buying them, and it is not that have had to go around fixing lots of problems without return.

 

As for Dapol, the colours can be a bit iffy (particularly BR Blue) and they had the registration error on the 68, other than that, I thought they generally did really well.

 

Roy

This member appears to have a steam interest only which is why I am curious to understand the tenor of his post,Roy. Modern image Dapol is a different matter entirely.

 

  I am also mindful of the circumstances in which Dapol withdrew from a direct presence on this forum several years ago. Enough said.

 

   Regards,Ian.

[PaulRhB]

Pointing out errors and reviews of issues are very valid and the sample size of the internet means we get a much better idea of the size of a problem. My issue is with the howls of we shouldn’t see this in a mass produced product, what do we base that on? Samsung one of the biggest in the world has made phones thats batteries explode and a folding phone that failed when folded! Any manufacturer can make errors in design or manufacture and has to make compromises to produce at a volume and price their market will pay. Considering the feverish pace of new models these days we are bound to get some things creeping through the process because their test model was assembled with more time and prepped to the full standards. Production models go through the hands of people just started at the company, someone who happened to have a drop of oil on their hands or wasn’t feeling well that particular day. So on top of any errors in spec that didn’t happen to show on the test you have random quality control errors which are unavoidable because humans are involved at design and production. The warranty is there to cover that and simply we need to check and test a model if we buy it to run it, over display, to make sure. Robot assembly won’t get perfection, they wear out and programs corrupt as proved by a friend whose paint shop robot sliced a new car roof in half! Certain eco friendly processes such as lead free solder have also introduced potential problems because the toxic materials were there to solve another problem so now we get more ‘dry joints’ I’ve had that affect what many would consider premium price models from Bemo. 
We have the information at our fingertips so we need to decide if their compromises and previous quality are worth our money. Keyboard warrior’ing’ doesn’t get far even with noted experts as demonstrated by a certain chap I knew personally on here, it didn’t come as a surprise to those of us who knew him and his bluntness wasn’t a problem in person but his passion and helpfulness didn’t come over well when he was in full flow on the keyboard  

Edited September 16, 2020 by PaulRhB

[Edwardian]

Hmm. I was quite deliberately circumspect about the pictures I posted, precisely because what we are looking at are first livery samples that do not reflect changes the Partners know they need to make, and I wanted to avoid causing much unnecessary doubt and confusion concerning points that will simply have fallen away by the time we see any further samples. 

 

We now have a full set of 'officials' to gawp at and, predictably, much doubt and confusion has ensued!

 

To pick up on a few of the comments I recall over the last few pages, yes, Green Giraffe, it was noted that the SR 1730 should have the buffer beam number in yellow.  As regards colour, I daresay the sample might match the 'sickly green' in which Ashford is said mistakenly to have painted some upon Grouping, but by the 1930 renumbering it is accepted that the Ds would be in Olive Maunsell Green (well, in one of them!). 

 

Gary, I think, mentioned that the valance/frame colour looked too light on the official pics of the SE&CR livery version. It will be darker when you see the finished one. For those impatient of the limitations of tampo-pad printing, IIRC, South-Eastern Finecast  produce a set of Wainwright lining for their D Class kit.  I have no idea whether lining for use on the splasher tops is included! On the other hand, if preferred, one could just buy, build, paint and line the kit.  

 

Linny's point about the BR lining is partially correct.  Oliver has already confirmed that the necessary corrections are known, but for clarity the addition of white lining is correct for the tender, but not the cab-side, which should be red  only.  There was a different style of cab lining applied to the Ds that did include white, so I understand why the query was raised, but in this case ...