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Locomotion & Rails of Sheffield announce SE&CR D Class


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5 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

( Earlier ? ...... 'O1', 'F1', 'B1' yes please ! ............................. and while I'm compiling my wishlist .................. )

 

O1 and F1 from 1903, so not exactly earlier. B1 I'll give you, from 1900. 

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3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

O1 and F1 from 1903, so not exactly earlier. B1 I'll give you, from 1900. 

Their origins are earlier, they are stylistically earlier and production could probably be back-dated to the Stirling originals should there be a proven market ............... but yes, I hadn't strictly checked my dates.

Incidentally, apart from the tender, of course, is there any way to tell a B1 from an F1 ?.

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14 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Their origins are earlier, they are stylistically earlier and production could probably be back-dated to the Stirling originals should there be a proven market ............... but yes, I hadn't strictly checked my dates.

Incidentally, apart from the tender, of course, is there any way to tell a B1 from an F1 ?.

 

There's all sorts of issues in backdating, starting with the smaller-diameter boiler of the original engines. Same issue with the Hornby J36 - Reid's rebuild, larger boiler than the original Holmes Class C. 

 

A B1 can be distinguished from an F1 by the number on the cab side. That may not have been foolproof in early SR days when the number was painted on the tender.

 

 

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16 hours ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

It would be good to see an Adams T3 follow on after the D class. Or even the SECR 01 which Bachmann or Hornby appear to be ignoring after the C/H was released

Yes I would also like to see the LSWR Adams T3 follow after the D class, especially as the sole survivor loco number 563 is currently undergoing restoration to steam on the Swanage Railway. 

    Another very useful Victorian LSWR loco would be the Adams A12 Class Jubilee 0-4-2 tender loco, one of which was not withdrawn from service until Dec.1948.

    Heres hoping.

    Chris

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50 minutes ago, phil gollin said:

.The obvious loco to follow on from the "D" class is the "D1" class.

 

In what sense? That the same mechanism and tender can be used? That it's on your personal wish-list?

 

Arguments against must include: it's another SECR 4-4-0 - market saturation? - no preserved example / not an NRM loco - insufficiently challenging / ground-breaking from the point of view of developing a RTR model...

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13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

....... A B1 can be distinguished from an F1 by the number on the cab side. .......

All right - if you insist " ... apart from the tender and number, of course, is there any way to tell a B1 from an F1 ?." ( I didn't really think that needed saying ! )

 

Yes, a D1 would use the same mechanism and basically the same tender as the D but - while it is, indeed, 'another SECR 4-4-0' - it's a very different looking machine ..... and suitable for very different operating conditions.

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1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Arguments against must include: ... insufficiently challenging / ground-breaking from the point of view of developing a RTR model...

 

And there was me thinking that RTR manufacturers/commissioners were in the business of making money. It had never occurred to me that it's the challenge that keeps 'em going.

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17 minutes ago, truffy said:

 

And there was me thinking that RTR manufacturers/commissioners were in the business of making money. It had never occurred to me that it's the challenge that keeps 'em going.

 

In the case of Rails, we see a commissioner (if not manufacturer) willing to venture into new materials and technologies (perhaps more so with the SECR van than with the D). Besides, surely in any line of business, there's more to it than making money - even employees of the Royal Mint would agree?

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2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

In the case of Rails, we see a commissioner (if not manufacturer) willing to venture into new materials and technologies (perhaps more so with the SECR van than with the D). Besides, surely in any line of business, there's more to it than making money - even employees of the Royal Mint would agree?

I saw that venture more as an alternative way of satisfying a perceived market need, rather than identifying a 'sufficient challenge' per se.

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2 hours ago, truffy said:

I saw that venture more as an alternative way of satisfying a perceived market need, rather than identifying a 'sufficient challenge' per se.

 

I'd be really surprised if there was in fact a great pent-up demand for an SECR van - rather a different matter once it was made available. Supply creates demand.

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53 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'd be really surprised if there was in fact a great pent-up demand for an SECR van - rather a different matter once it was made available. Supply creates demand.

 

I am not sure that I would agree that there was no pent up demand.  After all there have been quite a number of SECR locomotives issued - C, H, N, P,  Terrier and not a lot for them to haul - Birdcage sets in two liveries.   OK within the purchasers will be the collectors as well as those who like a pretty colourful engine and are not overly bother what is run with them.  Equally there will be those who really want something authentic to run with their SECR locomotives.

 

I have no doubt however that the release has expanded that demand further.

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3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'd be really surprised if there was in fact a great pent-up demand for an SECR van - rather a different matter once it was made available. Supply creates demand.

Must admit I was totally gobsmacked when I saw something that looked very much like an SECR van on Rails' stand at York ...... yes, I've got two but it's not a prototype that I ever dreamt of putting on my Christmas/wish list !

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14 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I'd be really surprised if there was in fact a great pent-up demand for an SECR van - rather a different matter once it was made available. Supply creates demand.

 

13 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

I am not sure that I would agree that there was no pent up demand.  After all there have been quite a number of SECR locomotives issued - C, H, N, P,  Terrier and not a lot for them to haul - Birdcage sets in two liveries.   OK within the purchasers will be the collectors as well as those who like a pretty colourful engine and are not overly bother what is run with them.  Equally there will be those who really want something authentic to run with their SECR locomotives.

 

I have no doubt however that the release has expanded that demand further.

 

For years I have been saying 'build it and they will come' with regard to pre-Grouping RTR models.  The only difference is that, these days, people don't shout at me for doing so!

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37 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

 

For years I have been saying 'build it and they will come' with regard to pre-Grouping RTR models.  The only difference is that, these days, people don't shout at me for doing so!

I suppose I should check to make sure but I think there were 126 pre-grouping companies. There seems to be a welcome tendency to concentrate on some rather than others, as witnessed by your rather lovely photograph on screen 47 of the Terrier thread. At the same time, there is a tendency to produce models from adjacent railways. Whilst the south is emphasised, O. S. Nock mentions Carlisle, where the locomotives of six different companies could be seen.

 

However, with the very honourable exception of Bachmann’s Birdcage coaches, there isn’t much for them to transport passengers in. Given the investment in a rake of coaches, it is perhaps understandable. Sorry to bang on about it but surely it would be a worthwhile investment to tool up a wagon from the pre-grouping period rather than just re-livery later models? Bachy’s efforts are better than nothing (Richard Proudman’s words) but an RCH wagon or two would be grand.

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23 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

In what sense? That the same mechanism and tender can be used? That it's on your personal wish-list?

 

Arguments against must include: it's another SECR 4-4-0 - market saturation? - no preserved example / not an NRM loco - insufficiently challenging / ground-breaking from the point of view of developing a RTR model...

.

 

A "D-1", developed from the "D", would be relatively easy and produce an engine which is very different in looks and lasted well into the BR era.   It couldn't be part of a "SECR 4-4-0 - market saturation" as they were never used by the SECR ;)

 

It is relatively simple and cheap to develop   -  not "challenging" at all  -  a very good choice for a manufacturer.

 

.

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2 hours ago, phil gollin said:

.

 

A "D-1", developed from the "D", would be relatively easy and produce an engine which is very different in looks and lasted well into the BR era.   It couldn't be part of a "SECR 4-4-0 - market saturation" as they were never used by the SECR ;)

 

It is relatively simple and cheap to develop   -  not "challenging" at all  -  a very good choice for a manufacturer.

 

.

 

The Brighton Atlantic group on the Bluebell have announced that they will do an E class to follow after the H2. Granted, we won't see it for at least 10 years but an E could follow the D. 

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3 hours ago, phil gollin said:

.

 

A "D-1", developed from the "D", would be relatively easy and produce an engine which is very different in looks and lasted well into the BR era.   It couldn't be part of a "SECR 4-4-0 - market saturation" as they were never used by the SECR ;)

 

It is relatively simple and cheap to develop   -  not "challenging" at all  -  a very good choice for a manufacturer.

 

.

I would hope that the D is being developed with an eye towards producing a D1 in future.

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4 hours ago, phil gollin said:

.

 

A "D-1", developed from the "D", would be relatively easy and produce an engine which is very different in looks and lasted well into the BR era.   It couldn't be part of a "SECR 4-4-0 - market saturation" as they were never used by the SECR ;)

 

It is relatively simple and cheap to develop   -  not "challenging" at all  -  a very good choice for a manufacturer.

 

.

According to Bradley the first D1s entered traffic in 1921 so were part of the SECR stock until the Grouping in 1923. Not sure what livery they wore during those years, but it wasn't the ornate SECR lined one seen on the preserved D etc, They were some of the last 4-4-0s in service on BR, some not being withdrawn until 1961, so besides all the Southern Railway livery iterations some would also have appeared in BR lined black with both early & late crests. In BR days they appeared on all 3 divisions of the Southern Region, including the western one.

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3 hours ago, prtrainman said:

According to Bradley the first D1s entered traffic in 1921 so were part of the SECR stock until the Grouping in 1923. Not sure what livery they wore during those years, but it wasn't the ornate SECR lined one seen on the preserved D etc, They were some of the last 4-4-0s in service on BR, some not being withdrawn until 1961, so besides all the Southern Railway livery iterations some would also have appeared in BR lined black with both early & late crests. In BR days they appeared on all 3 divisions of the Southern Region, including the western one.

The prototype 'E1' was finished specially in glossy black - but all the other rebuilds would have been grey until they got Southern Green.

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The deed is done, after careful thinking and planning in relations to my layout.

 

I can now say, I've pre-ordered all three SE&CR livery locos.

 

I take my hat off to NRM, Rails of Sheffield & Dapol for making this a reality, its great to see more and more pre-grouping era RTR oo gauge items come to the market.

 

I do hope this takes off and becomes a major seller,  it would be great, to see a second run of the D class at some point in the near future with different running numbers and more variations.

 

Maybe become one of Dapol's main range locos, if it sells really well.

 

I'm looking forward to seeing more updates and seeing the end result.

 

One thing that has caught my eye, is the connection between the loco and tender very revolutionary.

 

Could this become a standard evolution or something similar across all manacturers at some point in the future?

 

Only time will tell.

 

For me even though, these were used as express locos.

I'll be using them for my branchline, purely because I have a freelance layout running, locos and rolling stock from different eras, regions etc:

 

Best of luck guys, hope it goes well.

:)

 

Edited by Steam here!
Made an error
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The only proof I have of them running on the line my layout is based on (Portsmouth-Brighton) is this photo

The Lancing Belle taken at Holland Road in September 1953 is in the charge of former SECR Wainwright 'D' class 4-4-0 no. 31734 piloting Ex-LBSCR Billinton 'E4' class 0-6-2T no. 32556. If one accepts the date as correct   - but personal experience gained during many years of experience suggests otherwise -  I thought it would be of interest to find out where these engines were allocated at the time: 31734 was a Tonbridge engine whilst 32556 was an Eastleigh resident. [Mike Morant collection]

but my layout is set during the war years and the 40s are so poorly documented with photos because of wartime restrictions that I just use "there was a war on" as an excuse to run unlikely Southern locos a little away from home :p

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