Locomotion & Rails of Sheffield announce SE&CR D Class

[The Stationmaster]

One small point Edwardian - the 'white' lining wasn't white.  The official diagram showed it, where all three colours were used (e.g. as on tender panels) as follows  -

 

Outer band 5/8" wide in grey

Immediately inside that an 1/8th" wide band in cream

Then a space in the base black 1 & 5/8" wide, and finally

A red line 1/4" wide

 

So hardly easy to reproduce in 4mm scale

 

Here's metric drawing of it for the pattern used on panels although clearly at least one of the dimensions shown are incorrect. (I've got a n original spec drawing somewhere but it would take quite a while to delve it out so I took the one below off the 'net because at least it shows what it looked like even if one dimension is obviously wrong --

 

Edited September 16, 2020 by The Stationmaster
Typos

[Compound2632]

The photo of 31574 clearly shows the red line on the valence at a rather larger distance from the grey / cream than in the official specification, as is replicated on the livery sample. It looks closer to specification on the tender valence though that would seem to be an accidental consequence of running the red line at the same height (or distance below the platform), the tender valence being shallower. It's not clear (to me) but on the splashers there is a grey / cream line which is just inside the black-painted brass beading or else along its lower edge. Is the date of this photo (and others that show 31574 in this livery) known? Is it an early attempt by the Ashford paint shop at understanding LNWR livery? [EDIT: September 1956 I find. By which time Ashford ought to have made its collective mind up?]

 

In any case, it's clear that the livery sample follows the prototype, even if the prototype didn't follow the official specification! (Mike helpfully posted an image conforming to the specification while I was typing. The full specification is here:

Scroll down a bit for the mixed traffic lining.)

 

I'm wondering if the D was the only class to reach BR days still with what I will call the "Snowball / Johnson" style of splashers and qualify for mixed-traffic lining? Hence lack of clarity on how to apply the lining.

Edited September 16, 2020 by Compound2632

[BlueLightning]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

Gary, I think, mentioned that the valance/frame colour looked too light on the official pics of the SE&CR livery version. It will be darker when you see the finished one.

 

Thanks James,

 

I have passed this on to some people who are not on RMWeb but had also mentioned it in discussion.

 

Gary

[cctransuk]

32 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Here's metric drawing of it for the pattern used on panels although clearly at least one of the dimensions shown are incorrect.

 

 

Here's a corrected version; (via Corel Photopaint) : -

 

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited September 16, 2020 by cctransuk

[Compound2632]

For those of a nervous disposition, from the outside in that's: ⅝" grey, ⅛" cream, 1⅝" black, ¼" red - so you don't have to get it right to the nearest 5 µm; I dare say 1/64" (0.4 mm) will do! On the other hand, at 4 mm / ft scale, it's 0.21 mm grey, 0.04 mm cream, 0.54 mm black, 0.08 red. I think it's usual to represent the grey and cream by a line of a single colour, around 0.25 mm, and beef the width of the red up a bit.

 

Looking again at the photo of 31574, the red lines look wider than ¼"; this may just be an optical illusion - but one the model should replicate. The grey / cream line on the tender looks over specification width, at least in relation to the width of the gap to the red line.

[No Decorum]

49 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

For those of a nervous disposition, from the outside in that's: ⅝" grey, ⅛" cream, 1⅝" black, ¼" red - so you don't have to get it right to the nearest 5 µm; I dare say 1/64" (0.4 mm) will do! On the other hand, at 4 mm / ft scale, it's 0.21 mm grey, 0.04 mm cream, 0.54 mm black, 0.08 red. I think it's usual to represent the grey and cream by a line of a single colour, around 0.25 mm, and beef the width of the red up a bit.

 

Looking again at the photo of 31574, the red lines look wider than ¼"; this may just be an optical illusion - but one the model should replicate. The grey / cream line on the tender looks over specification width, at least in relation to the width of the gap to the red line.

Thank you! You have soothed my nerves. 

[Wickham Green too]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

......... the tender valence being shallower. ...........

Before anyone queries why the Rails / Dapol tender valence / running plate / hanging angle / call it what you want is the SAME depth as that on the loco - that's because that's how they were built ........... there seems to have been a mix-up between 'D' & 'E' tenders when the 'D1' & E1' classes were created and (31)574 has acquired an 'E' class tender. ( with shallower valence - or whatever - to match the shallower one on the loco with which it was built )

[Compound2632]

21 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

( with shallower valence - or whatever - to match the shallower one on the loco with which it was built )

 

I've been calling it "valence". I don't know what the Ashford LDO called it; the Derby LDO referred to it by the antique term "outside frame" since it did incorporate the bearings for some axles, as late as the last series of singles in 1900.

  

21 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

 (31)574 has acquired an 'E' class tender. 

 

Ah. Oh dear.

Edited September 16, 2020 by Compound2632

[Otis JB]

On 16/09/2020 at 07:48, Ian Hargrave said:

So please evidence this swipe .Which specific models are you using as examples ? If you are referring to steam outline OO....which is what this thread is about...at this moment you have a choice of two directly on the market: namely the B4 and the Rails Terrier.Otherwise this is a damaging and sweeping generalisation of questionable value.

 

 

 

 

- Post removed, explained later in thread  -

Edited October 22, 2020 by Otis JB

[Otis JB]

9 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

Pointing out errors and reviews of issues are very valid and the sample size of the internet means we get a much better idea of the size of a problem. My issue is with the howls of we shouldn’t see this in a mass produced product, what do we base that on? Samsung one of the biggest in the world has made phones thats batteries explode and a folding phone that failed when folded! Any manufacturer can make errors in design or manufacture and has to make compromises to produce at a volume and price their market will pay. Considering the feverish pace of new models these days we are bound to get some things creeping through the process because their test model was assembled with more time and prepped to the full standards. Production models go through the hands of people just started at the company, someone who happened to have a drop of oil on their hands or wasn’t feeling well that particular day. So on top of any errors in spec that didn’t happen to show on the test you have random quality control errors which are unavoidable because humans are involved at design and production. The warranty is there to cover that and simply we need to check and test a model if we buy it to run it, over display, to make sure. Robot assembly won’t get perfection, they wear out and programs corrupt as proved by a friend whose paint shop robot sliced a new car roof in half! Certain eco friendly processes such as lead free solder have also introduced potential problems because the toxic materials were there to solve another problem so now we get more ‘dry joints’ I’ve had that affect what many would consider premium price models from Bemo. 
We have the information at our fingertips so we need to decide if their compromises and previous quality are worth our money. Keyboard warrior’ing’ doesn’t get far even with noted experts as demonstrated by a certain chap I knew personally on here, it didn’t come as a surprise to those of us who knew him and his bluntness wasn’t a problem in person but his passion and helpfulness didn’t come over well when he was in full flow on the keyboard  

Thank you for clarifying, Paul, I agree with you.

 

As a side note: I find myself relating to your friend more often than I would like sometimes! 

[Otis JB]

7 hours ago, Edwardian said:

For those impatient of the limitations of tampo-pad printing

Will this model be Tampo printed? I recall from Jenny Kirk that some manufacturers use something more advanced these days...

[Bluebell Model Railway]

On 16/09/2020 at 18:58, Otis JB said:

Will this model be Tampo printed? I recall from Jenny Kirk that some manufacturers use something more advanced these days...

 

Tampo printing is generally the standard method of decorating models most will go through a colour spray booth... Masked with templates.. Then various passes through the tampo machines, can be a lot of work pending on how complex the livery is. 

 

There are various other ways depending on complexity seen various different ways Hornby had a dmu I can't remember which but it was a slid over the side and took the form and shape of the complex side. 

Was very interesting. 

Edited September 21, 2020 by Bluebell Model Railway

[Skinnylinny]

This one? Looks rather like a large waterslide transfer to me!
 

 

[sparaxis]

Some manufacturers are starting to use a variant of ink-jet printing...with varying results. Roco came in for quite a lot of criticism in the last year or so as some new locos used this technology and the internet declared that it was not as sharp/clear/defined as tampo printing for the smallest elements.

 

I guess it is just one more tool in the tool box. Locos covered in all over advertising, (or teak finishes on carriages) probably benefit from this. But for sharp lettering, tampo still works best. (for now)

[PaulRhB]

2 hours ago, sparaxis said:

Roco came in for quite a lot of criticism in the last year or so as some new locos used this technology and the internet declared that it was not as sharp/clear/defined as tampo printing for the smallest elements.

Yes you could see the dots up close on some. Also not as hard wearing, LGB have been using it for advert liveries and locos were coming out of the box brand new with it already rubbed off on corners and it was easily damaged in handling with heavy locos. 

[maico]

3 hours ago, sparaxis said:

Some manufacturers are starting to use a variant of ink-jet printing...with varying results. Roco came in for quite a lot of criticism in the last year or so as some new locos used this technology and the internet declared that it was not as sharp/clear/defined as tampo printing for the smallest elements.

 

I guess it is just one more tool in the tool box. Locos covered in all over advertising, (or teak finishes on carriages) probably benefit from this. But for sharp lettering, tampo still works best. (for now)

 

Do you have a link to any photos of those Roco locos?

[Wickham Green too]

4 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

........... coming out of the box brand new with it already rubbed off on corners and it was easily damaged in handling with heavy locos. 

You mean they don't apply seven coats of finishing varnish to protect the paintwork !!?!

[Dunsignalling]

On 15/09/2020 at 14:11, Roy Langridge said:

 

Is registration really that hard these days though? I am thinking about those really complex liveries where multiple colours are overlaid and they are normally spot on.

 

Roy

I'd think that's highly dependent on the synergy (or not) between the complexity of the livery and the complexity of the shape to which it is to be applied.

 

Anything is possible, but there is always a knock-on effect of one kind or another. The one most likely to emerge in a case such as this would be a significant increase in the reject rate, which would have an equally significant effect on the prices of the "survivors". Unless Rails/Dapol/Locomotion think that the market would take the hit for that, some balance must be struck.

 

Getting the elaborate SECR/preserved livery professionally applied by hand in its entirety would set you back considerably more than the complete model under discussion, so we do need to keep this in proportion. 

 

Personally, I've long held the opinion that r-t-r locos in fancy liveries should be significantly more expensive to buy than simpler versions, purchasers of which effectively subsidise the former. In this instance, I'd consider a fifty quid premium over the plain black models to be not unreasonable. 

 

Possible compromise: cost the consequences of adding the splasher-top lining, announce a price increase on the appropriate models only to cover the cost of scrapping the duds, and see how many pre-orders get cancelled?   

 

John

Edited September 23, 2020 by Dunsignalling

[Wickham Green too]

In my warped sense of logic I'd say do the splasher-top lining first and inspect : good ones progress to the rest of the lining and the rejects get a coat of plain black ! ( I might get my plain black one a bit quicker that way. )

[truffy]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Personally, I've long held the opinion that r-t-r locos in fancy liveries should be significantly more expensive to buy than simpler versions, purchasers of which effectively subsidise the former. In this instance, I'd consider a fifty quid premium over the plain black models to be not unreasonable. 

I agree with the idea of a premium for fancy liveries, although there are actually three tiers in the cases of this particular model, which rather complicates the situation: super-fancy (SECR silk); moderately fancy (SR, SECR grey scraped, BR lined); and plain black.

 

I don't think that I'd want to pay the same for the SR as for the SECR silk. But YMMV.

Edited September 23, 2020 by truffy

[sparaxis]

On 22/09/2020 at 13:02, maico said:

 

Do you have a link to any photos of those Roco locos?

I don't have a link available, but there was a lot of comment with photos in the "drehscheibe-online" forums last year. 

[Bluebell Model Railway]

On 23/09/2020 at 10:13, Dunsignalling said:

I'd think that's highly dependent on the synergy (or not) between the complexity of the livery and the complexity of the shape to which it is to be applied.

 

Anything is possible, but there is always a knock-on effect of one kind or another. The one most likely to emerge in a case such as this would be a significant increase in the reject rate, which would have an equally significant effect on the prices of the "survivors". Unless Rails/Dapol/Locomotion think that the market would take the hit for that, some balance must be struck.

 

Getting the elaborate SECR/preserved livery professionally applied by hand in its entirety would set you back considerably more than the complete model under discussion, so we do need to keep this in proportion. 

 

Personally, I've long held the opinion that r-t-r locos in fancy liveries should be significantly more expensive to buy than simpler versions, purchasers of which effectively subsidise the former. In this instance, I'd consider a fifty quid premium over the plain black models to be not unreasonable. 

 

Possible compromise: cost the consequences of adding the splasher-top lining, announce a price increase on the appropriate models only to cover the cost of scrapping the duds, and see how many pre-orders get cancelled?   

 

John

 

Agree John fact is they have given us a vague idea of price trying to keep it below £200... However they haven't confirmed said price yet... So I think they need to look at this before ruling we can't do it.. 

Tampo print it on a transfer sheet.. 

I'm just slightly worried having a £200 model that looks half finished...  I wouldn't be comfortable with it. 

 Sadly the most common word I'm hearing with ROS recently is comprimise...  However at this price I would hope it to be perfection.. I would be happy to pay a little more If it's right. 

[JSpencer]

I suppose they could always supply a transfer sheet for those 2 pieces of lining for people to add themselves.

 

Yes it is £200 where as Bachmann's original C was about £80, prices have gone up due to rising increases in China in the approx 10 years since. However the process to make these models and QC have not evolved much since.

These are a bigger proportion of our income. I've long ceased buying stuff just because it looked pretty or unique and only buy things that are well in line with my interests.

[Compound2632]

There is good RTR precedent for omitting the splasher-top lining in the full Wainwright livery:

https://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/news/leicester-news/chuffed-bits-rare-toy-train-1576870

(Third photo down.)

 

[chrism993]

On 24/09/2020 at 20:50, JSpencer said:

I suppose they could always supply a transfer sheet for those 2 pieces of lining for people to add themselves.

 

Yes it is £200 where as Bachmann's original C was about £80, prices have gone up due to rising increases in China in the approx 10 years since. However the process to make these models and QC have not evolved much since.

These are a bigger proportion of our income. I've long ceased buying stuff just because it looked pretty or unique and only buy things that are well in line with my interests.

 

Have used HMRS LNER lining 05 for a couple of Maunsell locos, it has two widths of black/white banding on the sheet so if it bothers me that much when it arrives will just apply these.