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Locomotion & Rails of Sheffield announce SE&CR D Class


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On 18/06/2021 at 18:30, BlueLightning said:

Well mine has arrived today, and what can I say, it's absolutely, sort of OK I guess. The loco on a whole is a very nice loco, probably more credit to Harry Wainwright and Co rather than Dapol to be fair. It has some points that I am sure you will tell me I am nitpicking (I am, because I have spent £200 on this so I can), could have chosen not to buy it (True, but since I cannot see the finished model up close like this without buying it that kind of a moot point, plus you could choose not to read this post if you don't want to read my nitpicking), or I could always built the SE Finecast kit if I prefer (I am, I'm part of the way through it, but will soon be giving it a new chassis with working inside valve gear, shameless plug for my YouTube if you want to see me do it live, once I have a few other projects out the way). So with those bits out the way can we get on with looking at the loco?

 

So as I said, the loco in general, and on it's own, as in without other companies SE&CR Wainwright liveried locos around it is very nice however, when you start to get other locos out next to it, or start to look a bit closer than a passing glance, it starts to show it's issues.

 

The first thing that stands out to me is the splasher crest, it looked a bit "plain" especially next to my Hattons P and Hornby H that I sat next to it, so I decided to take a closer look, and instantly saw the issue. This is the D Class crest:

838052378_2021-06-1816_02_53.jpg.755fe0267fab52d77851fb454b9a9b7c.jpg

 

This is the Hattons P Class crest, which not only cost half the price, but is smaller than the crest on the D Class, I would say roughly 80% of the size:

162622778_2021-06-1816_05_21.jpg.307d5a3b6307ab865fd683ab901a9292.jpg

 

Even the Hornby one looks better!

189032157_2021-06-1816_06_11.jpg.750bde3e31a30024eca79cf60f2d46a7.jpg

 

You'll notice that out of all 3 the only one that is illegible is the D Class, it is also the only one with lots of missing colours, and considering both the Hornby and Hattons models we significantly cheaper than this one, it's not a great start is it?

If you now go backward to my picture of the D Class again, look at the lining on the top of the splasher, it's not great either is it?

 

Gary

 

With respect Gary, what a nonsense point on the crests.  

 

Each of the examples you give are representations of the real thing, Each differ. You present three different takes on the crest. Each is different, yet each is reasonable. You single out the D's, yet, if one wanted to be picky, one could criticise the other two as having missing colours and overall too much white. I'm not, by the way, and I don't.

 

Truth be told, there will be differences in the result when attempting to reproduce something of such complexity because it cannot be done at dead scale as elements of it are just too small.

 

Just like the lining. No one could produce Wainwright lining at scale and, if they could, you wouldn't be able to see half of it. 

 

The best a manufacturer can hope for is the best overall impression. Given the parameters of legitimate representation, you have to hope that your combination of coloured lines blends in the viewer's eye to something that looks like Wainwright lining.  This inevitably leads to differing results.  When I last placed RTR locos in this livery together, I found that each manufacturer's lining appeared different. In some, the pale green predominated, or looked at the bluer end of the spectrum; Bachmann's C was the outlier. with the overall impression distinctly quite far off to the yellow end of the range.

 

We see something similar with the crests.  

 

364396885_IMG_0049-Copy-Copy.JPG.e06176a12542d8de18806f1d16428d3a.JPG

 

DSCN8602.JPG.413d46ac5fe6ea5a619a9133b210f783.JPG

 

There are always some issues worth pointing out, concerns expressing - I'm rather more with you and others on the number slant issue, for instance, but other points strike me as mere scab-picking, I'm afraid.

 

838052378_2021-06-1816_02_53.jpg.755fe0267fab52d77851fb454b9a9b7c.jpg

 

 

 

 

Edited by Edwardian
misbehaving pictures
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8 hours ago, Eddie the dog said:

No idea, not had notification about 488 yet.

I did raise the question when I ordered, but believe that they were due at the same time back then.

 

Ah I see, your post made it sound like you'd already paid and had your first dispatched, I'm sure there are options for those who've ordered multiple, I'm waiting on the Southern pair 

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I'm sure Gary won't mind me using his photo, colours aside, what's up with the actual font on the crest? And the print quality of the lining...  I'd be a bit annoyed too if I'd bought one of the SECR ones, I think the criticism is justified and If it were my product I'd be a little embarrassed and a bit miffed with the manufacturer.

838052378_2021-06-1816_02_53.jpg.755fe0267fab52d77851fb454b9a9b7c.jpg.a0872df56c913038a39e168ae447a1e6_edit_1445802738424178.jpg.53e4c19c7e8659da50e14ae0a2673453.jpg

 

Fortunately I don't think much can go wrong with a black one, we'll see what the finish of the lining is like on the olive one.

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1 hour ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

And the print quality of the lining..

 

In reality you will not see that with your eyes, especially in normal usage.

 

Edwardian is correct in that it has to give a representation and for normal viewing it does just that. I have discussed the lining and crest at some length with the commissioning parties with my thoughts. It could have been better but I only know of one manufacturer that can demonstrate that level of accuracy of multiple tampo print passes. I view it as quite acceptable rather than excellent. There's a mixture of tampo and transfers on the model, arguably some of the more complex lining features may have been more accurate with transfers. None of these elements are relevant to the simpler liveries of course where I think the recipients will be highly delighted.

 

At the time I was getting more critical of the dome and safety valve finish than the lining anyway; that's far more dominant.

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2 hours ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

I'm sure Gary won't mind me using his photo, colours aside, what's up with the actual font on the crest? And the print quality of the lining...  I'd be a bit annoyed too if I'd bought one of the SECR ones, I think the criticism is justified and If it were my product I'd be a little embarrassed and a bit miffed with the manufacturer.

838052378_2021-06-1816_02_53.jpg.755fe0267fab52d77851fb454b9a9b7c.jpg.a0872df56c913038a39e168ae447a1e6_edit_1445802738424178.jpg.53e4c19c7e8659da50e14ae0a2673453.jpg

 

Fortunately I don't think much can go wrong with a black one, we'll see what the finish of the lining is like on the olive one.

 

Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us as to the scale of magnification of that image?

 

It measures 190mm. horizontally and does not completely cover a single splasher!!

 

You appear not to own one of these SECR locos, but do you spend your time examining your models with a high-powered magnifying glass?

 

CJI.

 

John Isherwood

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I'm sure this could have been done better - but not at this price-point. Offer it at £350 or £400 with near-perfect crests and lining, and you rather more than halve the market, so it ceases to be viable. Every photo I have seen of the whole model gives the impression of a smashing rendition of this glorious scheme. Actually at £200 that's a substantial bargain. 

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6 hours ago, Edwardian said:

With respect Gary, what a nonsense point on the crests.  

 

Each of the examples you give are representations of the real thing, Each differ. You present three different takes on the crest. Each is different, yet each is reasonable. You single out the D's, yet, if one wanted to be picky, one could criticise the other two as having missing colours and overall too much white. I'm not, by the way, and I don't.

 

Truth be told, there will be differences in the result when attempting to reproduce something of such complexity because it cannot be done at dead scale as elements of it are just too small.

 

I take your point, and obviously which crest we find best is very much opinion, personally for me I think the Hattons one is best, but that's just me, I was however expecting the crest to be legible on the D Class as it is the others.

 

6 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Just like the lining. No one could produce Wainwright lining at scale and, if they could, you wouldn't be able to see half of it. 

 

Again, yes this is a good point, I was more talking about the quality of the application rather than if it was scale, which on the D is a lower quality that the others, but is not noticeable at "normal viewing distance" it does start to show if you are looking at the model close up, but I don't plan on doing that too much, but given the P was about £100 RRP and the H was about £130(I think, I could be slightly wrong on this) RRP I was expecting the quality to match

 

6 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Bachmann's C was the outlier. with the overall impression distinctly quite far off to the yellow end of the range.

 

I don't have the Bachann C to compare with, otherwise I would have been comparing that as well. but I found the overall impression from 3ft to be reasonable similar colour wise for the D, P, and H

 

6 hours ago, Edwardian said:

There are always some issues worth pointing out, concerns expressing - I'm rather more with you and others on the number slant issue, for instance

 

Yes I chose to ignore the finish on the dome etc as those have been covered enough and are the same on all of them, the number seems to vary so I felt worth showing on my model

 

6 hours ago, Edwardian said:

but other points strike me as mere scab-picking, I'm afraid.

 

I agree, in fact I said as much at the start of my post

 

48 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I'm sure this could have been done better - but not at this price-point.

 

I feel this point ignores that others have done it for less

 

Anyway, that's enough of that, let's see a nice gathering of SECR locos! (Ignore the transfers on my kit built D Class, those are the trial transfers to check sizes, there were wrong and have been adjusted accordingly already)

 

Gary

 

2041718829_2021-06-2014_38_51.jpg.cd84f611c1a96d9d352e2bc18bea1e1f.jpg

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And looking at that last picture Gary, I see the differences in the crest between the Hatton's P - fresh, clean and unused, and the Rails D at the end of a half days work and a bit smudged with dirt.

I have no problem with those differences because they largely reflect the use of the locos in real life.  

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Well I too await the Southern olive green version and hope it is better than the SE&CR model. I must agree with Sam that this really is no better than the Dapol GWR Mogul which sells for much less and pulls about as well. I cannot fathom why they put metallic domes, etc. on the thing but painted the top of the stack a d a number of other fittings with a poor representation of copper/brass—totally ruins the effect. For those who have not seen Sam’s review here is a link:

 

 

Edited by Cofga
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19 minutes ago, Cofga said:

Well I too await the Southern olive green version and hope it is better than the SE&CR model. I must agree with Sam that this really is no better than the Dapol GWR Mogul which sells for much less and pulls about as well. I cannot fathom why they put metallic domes, etc. on the thing but painted the top of the stack a d a number of other fittings with a poor representation of copper/brass—totally ruins the effect. For those who have not seen Sam’s review here is a link:

 

 

Sorry - but it is the dome that shouts 'toy'; Tri-ang did this with their GWR Single in the 1960s and it looked rubbish even then!

 

Sam who? Oh, the kid who runs trains on the carpet!

 

CJI.

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For all the issues there may or may not be I am happy that I will in due course have four D Class. £200 seems alot but a few years back I purchased a ready to run SE finecast D in SE&CR livery. I believe parts and materials alone were nearly £200.

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1 minute ago, cctransuk said:

Sorry - but it is the dome that shouts 'toy'; Tri-ang did this with their GWR Single in the 1960s and it looked rubbish even then!

 

Sam who? Oh, the kid who runs trains on the carpet!

 

CJI.


Quite a fair review I thought. It does score relatively highly . But the kid on the carpet is one of the first I’ve seen to substitute the traction tyred drivers with the other pair supplied . Seems to improve running but drastically reduces traction . It seems to be a very light loco .  

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2 minutes ago, Legend said:


Quite a fair review I thought. It does score relatively highly . But the kid on the carpet is one of the first I’ve seen to substitute the traction tyred drivers with the other pair supplied . Seems to improve running but drastically reduces traction . It seems to be a very light loco . 

 

I ignore all reviews, in fact I don't read / watch them.

 

I form my own opinion and, if the product is poor, back it goes.

 

CJI.

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If this thread has confirmed anything for me. It's that there's a huge difference between Criticismand Constructive Criticism.

 

I'm still really looking forward to getting my mitts on the D, roll on the sunshine version!

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8 hours ago, Cofga said:

Well I too await the Southern olive green version and hope it is better than the SE&CR model. I must agree with Sam that this really is no better than the Dapol GWR Mogul which sells for much less and pulls about as well. I cannot fathom why they put metallic domes, etc. on the thing but painted the top of the stack a d a number of other fittings with a poor representation of copper/brass—totally ruins the effect. For those who have not seen Sam’s review here is a link:

 

 


Hmm..... so you are comparing the D with a loco which has far less lining and which is available for a huge number of retailers (I.e. not a retailers exclusive) 

 

With that sort of outlook I can see why you like Sam’s trains - he loves to rubbish models as having a poor design while ignoring the fact that in more than a few cases said design is over a decade old and things we take for granted now we’re not thought necessary.

 

If doing comparisons you need to compare like with like - A Bachman City class would be a closer match when all is said and done.

 

Its a mater of fact that the more lining there is, the more time it takes to decorate the loco and the grater the chance of mistakes happening writing off the body shell.

 

As such it’s entirely reasonable to expect the D to retail at a significantly higher prices than the Dapol mogal.

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I saw yesterday the youtube movie of Sam’s Trains about his Locomotion SECR D Class nr. 737. Are there some differences with the Dapol SECR D nr. 488 other than the color of the box; black vs green?

Edited by jburgt
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8 minutes ago, jburgt said:

I saw yesterday the youtube movie of Sam’s Trains about his Locomotion SECR D Class nr. 737. Are there some differences with the Dapol SECR D nr. 488 other than the color of the box; black vs green?

There's an extra incorrect set of lining on the centre firebox boiler band of 737 and its meant to have a semi gloss finish. 

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4 minutes ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

an extra incorrect set of lining on the centre firebox boiler band of 737

 

It's correct for how 737 is presented in the NRM. The finish is the same as the Rails version as it was decided not to go with the gloss version after assessment.

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