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Locomotion & Rails of Sheffield announce SE&CR D Class


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11 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

You've never heard of the Charing Cross - Cheltenham special then? :)

 

 

7 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

I mention this because 1730 was noted with 14 LMS corridor coaches on Reading-Redhill line during Dunkirk Evacuation, 1940.  BTW, that's a a nice example of the Ds doing good work; a heavy train on a line significantly more steeply graded than the SE mainlines for which they were designed.  

 

 

Stop it, the pair of you. My fantasy is to model Loddon Bridge / Earley / Huntley & Palmers sidings c. 1900 - I don't need to have my resolution undermined...

 

In my alphabet of desire, F comes before D.

Edited by Compound2632
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1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

Stop it, the pair of you. My fantasy is to model Loddon Bridge / Earley / Huntley & Palmers sidings c. 1900 - I don't need to have my resolution undermined...

 

1902 is potentially circa 1900. Take 488 for a run out west!

 

 

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14 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

NO WAY!

 

Some of us are restricted to 'trainset' curves and its snobbery of the highest order to say we should be denied beautiful models like this just so those fortunate enough to have lots of space can load it over the rest of us.

 

If it so upsets the purists that this model will have to cope with 2nd radius curves then I'm sue there are kits out there which can be used to demonstrate superiority.

Very well said, Sir.

Because of space restrictions I had to build my OO railway in the garden.

The decking was built off site, and a miscalculation during construction dictated the use

of one length of radius 2 track. Out of all my loco's, only the Heljan ' Tango ' objects to this tight curve.

 

I hope that the newly announced SECR ' D ' will also cope with my mistake, as do my other 4-4-0's.

The ' D ' has been a long time coming, and is for me the most welcome Edwardian loco, in model form, of them all.

I also hope the ' D ' will help the sales of Bachmann's Birdcages.

Edited by trevor7598
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18 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

I do keep looking at this and thinking that I must check whether the dimensions are close enough for conversion to one of S.W. Johnson's later 4-4-0s for the Midland - 2203 Class maybe. The D1 rebuilds have a strong family likeness to the 483 Class rebuilds of the Johnson 4-4-0s!

 

Mulling this over, I think it's only really the mechanism and footplate / splashers component that might contribute. The D has the slender front framing of the 2203 Class rather than the more substantial framing of the 150 and 60 Classes; the latter had piston valves. Did the Ds have slide valves?

 

Also, what is the coupled wheelbase of a D?

 

Thinking about SECR locomotives, how much is common between the D and E? Would some minor adjustment of the footplate / splasher / cab component and a Belpaire boiler suffice to produce an accurate E?

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1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

Colour supplement .... 

There's an enchanting colour photograph of 1726 amid the fug of the Victoria train shed circa 1937 reproduced in 'The Big Four in Colour' which only underlines the elegance. (Facing page there's the ultimate descendant, Maunsell's L1, all functional and characterless, just to add a little emphasis to where the true loveliness lay.)

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I can't help feeling sorry for South East Finecast. Yet another of the ex Wills range, to be covered by rtr.

On the plus side, the rtr price is more than buying the kit, wheels and motor. That doesn't happen too often these days.

 

Mike Wiltshire

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28 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Mulling this over, I think it's only really the mechanism and footplate / splashers component that might contribute. The D has the slender front framing of the 2203 Class rather than the more substantial framing of the 150 and 60 Classes; the latter had piston valves. Did the Ds have slide valves?

 

Also, what is the coupled wheelbase of a D?

 

28 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Thinking about SECR locomotives, how much is common between the D and E? Would some minor adjustment of the footplate / splasher / cab component and a Belpaire boiler suffice to produce an accurate E?

Ds had slide valves and a coupled wb of 9ft.  Es were 9ft 6in with Drivers 6ft 6iin instead of 6ft 8in - not really relevant in 4mm.

 

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3 minutes ago, chris45lsw said:

 

Ds had slide valves and a coupled wb of 9ft.  Es were 9ft 6in with Drivers 6ft 6iin instead of 6ft 8in - not really relevant in 4mm.

 

 

Matches the 2203 for wheelbase. The 2203 had 6'6" drivers; the D's splashers look closer to those of a 2203 than a 7'0" 2183 Class. Pass.

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24 minutes ago, Coach bogie said:

I can't help feeling sorry for South East Finecast. Yet another of the ex Wills range, to be covered by rtr.

On the plus side, the rtr price is more than buying the kit, wheels and motor. That doesn't happen too often these days.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Actually, the point was raised by Tony Wright yesterday in reference to the impact of RTR releases such as this on kit manufacturers. While I accept that point, I will add, some further points that I mentioned to Tony Wright in response:

 

- That kit tooling has been around for a long-time; it cannot owe anyone anything by now because it has taken decades for an RTR release to catch up with it.

 

-  What, I wonder, was the RTR selection on offer at the time the kit was introduced?  I suspect mainly BR and Grouping 'Group Standard', in other words, the kit manufacturer looked at what was left untouched by RTR and available for a kit manufacturer to exploit.  The judgment in this case proved to be a good one, as it has taken decades for the RTR manufacturers to tackle the Wainwright designs in the Wills/SE catalogue: C, H, P and D.

 

- However, there remains, and will always remain a vast hinterland, including the fruit on the branch immediate above, that RTR manufacturers would no doubt take years and years to reach, if ever they do.  For someone who now wants to sell loco kits for the SE&CR modeller, it seems to me that the lowest hanging fruit is now probably the Stirling classes and their Wainwright rebuilds, F/F1, O./O1. 

 

In other words, there is no reason why kit manufacturers cannot evolve their catalogues in order to stay ahead of RTR manufactures; it's not as if there isn't enough time in which to do so!

 

EDIT:  PS, I would also add that Rails/Dapol are in part at least responding to the calls for an RTR D, which have been evident for some time; I think many will feel that it had become a notable omission and a logical next release. To what extent, if any, can you blame a manufacturer for answering such calls?

Edited by Edwardian
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57 minutes ago, Coach bogie said:

I can't help feeling sorry for South East Finecast. Yet another of the ex Wills range, to be covered by rtr.

On the plus side, the rtr price is more than buying the kit, wheels and motor. That doesn't happen too often these days.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

But the SE Finecast kit will still be there when the rtr version has sold out.

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Interestingly, Tony Wright made a point that echoed something that I had said about the Locomotion/Rapido Stirling Single; there might be only a tiny handful of people capable of finishing a kit in an elaborate pre-Grouping livery to a standard that equalled what could now be produced RTR.  If you don't happen to be one of that handful, your options are very expensive ones if the model isn't made RTR!

 

I had made the point in the context of value perception of an RTR loco that was priced north of £200.  With the D, subject to confirmation and currency fluctuation, the price point is aimed at south of £200.   

 

Undoubtedly it is a mark of progress that we are offered such standards of detail and decoration RTR for, say, 20% of what it might cost to have an equivalent item built and painted to the highest standards. . 

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I've held off buying many of these SECR kits because - with work and kids - I have no time to build them. 

I still have an SECR J class waiting to see the work bench (a loco never likely to see RTR with a rare 0-6-4 wheel arrangement). Last year I got out an O1, using RTR chassis, a simple BR paint scheme and a Golden Arrow set of resin casts and various other bits.

 

An increase in pre grouping interest may see more pre-grouping kit sales as some of the people wish to explore or compliment their pre-grouping range. Though I suspect many will be happy with just the token range of pre-grouping RTR locos.

I suspect the damage done to kit sales was already done as soon as RTR manufacturers swept up most BR and grouping types of loco. 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

I had made the point in the context of value perception of an RTR loco that was priced north of £200.  With the D, subject to confirmation and currency fluctuation, the price point is aimed at south of £200.   

 

The price point leaves me a bit conundrum.  I am confident I will buy all 3 SECR locos. However normally I like to have a token BR version to go with all the later SR and BR southern stock.

Of the two BR ones, one has the somewhat rare BR sunshine lettering  and I know a loco like this lasted into the mid 50s. So this would make a change from all the other BR lined stock. The other in a true BR lined black, has the 4 window cab which makes it different from the three SECR versions in terms of detail. I don't fancy having 2 BR ones.

Maybe the 4 window cab will appear later in SECR colours - but that depends on how well the D class sell I suppose.

 

Edited by JSpencer
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As one who once produced conversion kits to enable 'sort of' models of the 'Brighton Belle' and to 'improve' the cab front of the Tri-ang Blue Pullman, I can only say I was delighted when great new ready-to-run versions came along. I would suspect that the vast majority of kit sales are lost because people feel unable/unwilling to build kits or believe that they will face a struggle to produce a working model that they'll be happy with. Those are the people who will buy RTR. They are unlikely to have ever bought the kit. (CJL)

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On 15/10/2019 at 15:27, Wickham Green said:

Well I don't think anyone's actually criticised this fantastic announcement yet - but FROM WHAT WE'VE BEEN SHOWN SO FAR - it looks like they've fallen into the same trap as Wills / Finecast did all those years ago and overlooked the extra dampers ( or whatever ) fitted to the tender spring hangers : I think these were fitted from new to the E class, certainly to the L class and retro-fitted to all other Wainwright tenders. before grouping. ( and I'm sure they'll straighten the front vac pipe if someone mentions it ! )

 

Of course, not everyone wants a loco in recondition state - especially those with Bachmann SECR lined coaches - but it does take all kinds.  

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28 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

Of course, not everyone wants a loco in recondition state - especially those with Bachmann SECR lined coaches - but it does take all kinds.  

 

You would probably need them in reconditioned state if you plan to run them with the Bachmann Birdcages as the Birdcages weren't introduced until 1912!

 

 

 

Jason

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2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Interesting, and sometime amusing, to read some of the comments in this thread having listened yesterday to Andy, Dapol's designer, who has carried out the design & development work on the D (with a lot of assistance on detail from a certain member of this forum who has thus far in this thread hid that particular light beneath his bushel).  From the outset it was made very clear to those of us who heard the presentation that the aim has been to achieve a 'museum quality' model (in so far as production etc methods allow) but also to take fully into account that it will be a working model of a 4-4-0.

 

So yes - weight distribution has been very carefully considered and, after a lot of examination of possible alternatives it is why the model will have a metal boiler - which will help put the weight in the right place, together with careful consideration of the spring pressure to be used for the bogie.  And when EP models become available (and what we have seen so far is NOT an EP, see below) this will be subject to exhaustive testing to make sure the design has achieved and will deliver what it is intended to deliver in running terms.  In fact it was suggested that in designing the real engine Wainwright and his Chief Draughtsman no doubt had model railways in mind in view of the way the weight distribution was made easier for the 4mm scale design.

 

In fact it was most impressive to listen to the design philosophy which has gone into this model plus the level of carefully checked detail which it will incorporate - and some of that was visibe for us to see yesterday and shows in photos in this thread. So some amazingly thin plastic edges on such things as the cab roof and the raves on the tender mouldings (3 main variants of tender top if I got that number right).  And some really well thought through practical features are also going into the model such as the loco/tender electrical connection which will give excellent electrical contact with no wires to worry about plus close coupling which will allow for the engine/tender separation to increase as required on sharper curves - no messing about with plugs when trying to couple tender to loco.

 

Overall the design has clearly been very professionally, and in some respects radically, approached in respect of both detail but also taking very much into account what the model will be expected to do when running.   On a pedantic, but important, point - especially when looking at any photos of the loco and tender which are thus far available - what we saw, and what is to be seen in photos is NOT an EP but is actually an assemblage of 'first test moulding' components to come out of the factory.  So it needs to be treated with even greater discretion than an EP would need - the tools are not fully finished as yet so are not necessarily at the standard of finish that will be used to manufacture even pre-production samples.  And the assembled model we saw had literally arrived from China as a package of components - not as a factory assembled EP model -  which were then put together at Dapol's UK premises.

 

I really ought to have allowed the camera flash to fully recharge before I took this picture.  But as the result of my error is a rather different from the stuff the professionals have been producing so I show it here as something a little but different.  Thanks to the NRM for inviting me to the very interesting and informative presentation - which covered a lot more than the D itself as it took us into the benefits which are coming from the joint NRM/Rails development of models as well as some exciting plans for the development of the NRM's two museums.

 

154645864_DSCF0995copy.jpg.4fed9a114859ffa0159f65f4af46f80b.jpg

 

A great summary, Mike.

 

I felt that Andy gave an impressive presentation. His relaxed, frank and informative handling of the subject I think showed that he had very much mastered his brief and that he had really thought through the engineering solutions.    

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Adding to what Mike has posted above,his darkly atmospheric image captures the D model below the running plate beautifully.The spokes are as an almost ephemeral gossamer which adds an unique quality to this model.

Much has already been posted here on its unique aspects as an rtr  model so I ,as an invited guest yesterday  ,can contribute little more other than convey my sense of elation at finally witnessing something many of us have yearned for for a good many years. My first reaction was that ,having discussed with Mike over a hasty breakfast what IT might possibly be.....we met discovering we had booked the same hotel,quite by chance......we came to the conclusion that it logically had to be The Wainwright D but couldn’t quite get there yet.

 So there was everybody down in the hall,gathered adoringly around 737.The lecture theatre was empty.A quick glimpse revealed what you now all can see.....arrived only last Thursday from China and hastily assembled by the justifiably proud Dapol team.......and a satisfaction that we’d called it correctly over the ‘full English’ earlier.

 

 We were afforded the unique privilege of a footplate ascension of 737.My creaking frame proved fortunately equal to the task and I duly ascended to early 20 thC cutting edge steam heaven. Took good images but am a complete dummy at how to download them effectively onto this august and learned forum besides which Andy and Phil were ahead of me doing it in Todd AO.or what now passes for it.Whatever....pure  second childhood magic for me.,comparable with a footplate visit to 60022 at KX in the fifties.

 

The presentation afterwards had the hallmark of a glorious optimism both for the NRM.....which is about to receive      an injection of development capital for a much needed redevelopment.....and for the world of model railways which we inhabit. Dapol’s engineering development guru of considerable genius fielded all questions with consummate eloquence and skill -based knowledge. Rails’ John Barber enthused us with ebullient passion for his ongoing vision of what is now and is yet to come...true Yorkshire grit. Dennis Lovett brought us all quietly and professionally together. Much thanks for that.

 

One relatively unsung hero remains to be mentioned.He is the person who curated the presentation,fitting all the strands together into a cogent whole in a manner which demonstrates his skill as a true people mover . As a past chairman of Locomotion, the National Collection in Miniature is largely his brainchild. He has recently joined Rails after a period of close cooperation and so thus we are are getting the benefits of this.

 

Yesterday Brian Greenwood.....although you wouldn’t have known it.....was in a great deal of pain with a lower back problem. Yesterday was....and is.....a credit to him and all his efforts. The D Is finally...or shortly will be....with us at last. Superlatives are merited. Thanks to all for the spirit of determination and cooperation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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