Locomotion & Rails of Sheffield announce SE&CR D Class

[The Stationmaster]

35 minutes ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

 

Even if they could guesstimate the lowest they'd be, which I reckon would be around the £180 mark. Which already makes me wonder if I can afford two, although , I'm probably going to end up doing it anyway haha. Not that I suspect there is any rush to pre order the Southern variants? 

 

To be clear I'm not one of *those* people that tend to populate every Facebook post whinging about how expensive accurate models are, it's worth every penny, just curious as to HOW expensive this one is going to be and to plan finances accordingly.... 

I think the target of 'less than £200' is going to be the best we will get for some time yet.  there are numerous factors which come into the pricing of any model and they are all present in this one plus, as already noted, the international value (price?) of the £ against other currencies but particularly of course the $US (which is the currency used to buy the model from the factory) plus whatever currency is used to pay to get it our shores.  

 

From what was explained to us at the NRM on Tuesday it was very clear that careful attention has been paid to the financial aspect of the project, and hence the retail price, but it was equally made very clear that while the target is firmly 'less than £200' numerous factors will influence what it will be at the time of delivery in forecast Q3 2020.   It is however worth pointing out that while it depends on which version you go for Tony Wright expressed the opinion (and he should know) that to get that level of intricate livery and lining from a professional model painter of high repute would cost c.£350 just for the paint job and lining etc.   So even if the price is forced to creep above the Rails/NRM target figure we will still be getting what in some respects will amount to a real bargain.  In fact I don't think I'm talking out of turn to say that Tony in particular was surprised that the price was being targeted to come out that low.

 

Incidentally for a number of years some of us have been suggesting (badgering might be a better word!) those who matter in the decision making area  for the D to be included in the 'National Collection in Miniature' range  so we are more than happy to see this happening and were mightily impressed by what Dapol have achieved and the thought which has gone into the design.  By the way for those whose interests lie with a particular 'Great' Railway company the upcoming GWR mogul from Dapol will, I understand, incorporate the type of loco/tender electrical connection that is going to be used on the D.

[Pre Grouping fan]

1 hour ago, Ryde-on-time said:

Watching the video I especially like the loco to tender close coupling plug together thingy

 

Coaches have had close coupling for years so it's nice to see it on a steam loco (I am not aware of it on any other loco previously?)

The Bachmann N class has something similar but only as a physical not electrical connection. 

[Edwardian]

Indeed, Mike.  As ever, we cannot have both the Nth detail variation and the price point we like, so I imagine that the partnership will be working quite hard to balance two competing imperatives; a challenge that it is easy for we consumers to overlook.

[JSpencer]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

Well the Rails/ Bachmann Caley 812 is £199 (currently) , so that might be a guide . Similar complex pre grouping livery.  I've restricted myself to one model because of this.   Looks like the D might arrive before it though.  Well done Rails/ Dapol .  Clearly from posts on here there is a demand for a D and these test shots look exsquisite .  Hopefully this will be a roaring success and lead to other pre grouping locos being produced.   Dapol are certainly emerging as a good supplier of model railways . Their 68 is still the best diesel I've got .

 

It seems to be only Bachmann that has a problem of keeping a complex pre-grouping livery (such as their C class and the Caley) the same price as plain BR black. Hornby, Dapol and Hattons have now all done full Wainwright SECR liveried locos (H class, Terrier and P class) and they are not a penny more than the plain BR black.

 

[truffy]

54 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Tony Wright expressed the opinion (and he should know) that to get that level of intricate livery and lining from a professional model painter of high repute would cost c.£350 just for the paint job and lining etc.   So even if the price is forced to creep above the Rails/NRM target figure we will still be getting what in some respects will amount to a real bargain.  In fact I don't think I'm talking out of turn to say that Tony in particular was surprised that the price was being targeted to come out that low.

 

Could this simply reflect the difference in time and and labour costs between hand-lining and printing?

 

10 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

It seems to be only Bachmann that has a problem of keeping a complex pre-grouping livery (such as their C class and the Caley) the same price as plain BR black. Hornby, Dapol and Hattons have now all done full Wainwright SECR liveried locos (H class, Terrier and P class) and they are not a penny more than the plain BR black.

 

But we don't know to what extent the other players subsidise the more complex liveries by possibly increasing the cost for the plain black. Perhaps Blue's a bit more 'faithful' in apportioning the cost structure.

Edited October 17, 2019 by truffy

[JSpencer]

Price could depend a lot on orders. Ok production cost (paying people to produce and assemble a few hundred tiny parts and paint them) of a model per unit itself is not going to change but tooling cost per unit comes down quickly if say 10000 are ordered instead of 2000.

On a loco like this, that could make around a £30 difference to the RRP. 

 

Technically, if we order, can we cancel our orders and get our deposits back once the price is declared? 

[Guest LU Standard Stock]

5 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

Technically, if we order, can we cancel our orders and get our deposits back once the price is declared? 

 

Maybe if Rails have changed their policy, but I lost a lot of money on deposits with the 812 project. I pre-ordered 4 of them, then a little while after lost my job so cancelled 3. Rails told me I couldn't get my deposits back so I effectively lost £90. I just accepted it as the risk you take with the whole deposit system, certainly don't hold it against them. Obviously I would have liked my money back, but what can you do?

Edited October 17, 2019 by LU Standard Stock

[JSpencer]

Just now, truffy said:

But we don't know to what extent the other players subsidise the more complex liveries by possibly increasing the cost for the plain black. Perhaps Blue's a bit more 'faithful' in apportioning the cost structure.

 

I have the impression that the factories themselves do not differentiate except in Bachmann's case. I cannot imagine - say - Hornby purposely upping the BR price to make SECR one cheaper if the costs they got showed the SECR one to be more. Especially as the pretty one will almost certainly sell more. 

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

2 hours ago, Ryde-on-time said:

Watching the video I especially like the loco to tender close coupling plug together thingy

 

Coaches have had close coupling for years so it's nice to see it on a steam loco (I am not aware of it on any other loco previously?)

Liked the video presentation: note to all manufacturers, that's the way to improve end customer engagement.

 

As already mentioned the initial versions of the N class had a close coupling device. It wasn't successful, and this wasn't because the tender wheelsets had insufficient sideplay, even with that corrected it didn't work well. It was the disparity in weight between loco and tender where the trouble lay. Pulling a  decent trainload behind the tender performance improved, reversing light engine or with a train, unreliable.

 

This is a classic solution looking for a problem, and may well lead to a visually intrusive 'lump' where there should be clear air. On UK loco and tender combinations, the simple drawbar through the drag box (where it should be!) and an adjustable slide on the tender underside concealed behind the frames does the job. Route the wiring secured to the drawbar with a miniature plug connection. (Just copy Bachmann's standard arrangement!)

[The Stationmaster]

34 minutes ago, truffy said:

 

Could this simply reflect the difference in time and and labour costs between hand-lining and printing?

 

 

But we don't know to what extent the other players subsidise the more complex liveries by possibly increasing the cost for the plain black. Perhaps Blue's a bit more 'faithful' in apportioning the cost structure.

It obviously does reflect the difference in costs to some extent but don't forget that even a complex machine printed livery involves numerous passes at the various stages of printing which occupies time and increases cost.  But the difference remains - if you want complex every/lining detail the really good professionals will do the job for you - at the cost of their expensive time plus a profit element which will be far beyond the financial reach of many of us.  The opposite will be the case with a similar livery on an r-t-r model where the use of mass production techniques, even for relatively limited numbers per run, will make the model affordable for more people. 

 

The question of what you refer to as 'subsidy' is far more complex than you suggest.  To arrive at a price for any model being offered in multiple liveries it won't just be the difference in the complexity of the livery but the difference in anticipated sales numbers for the different variants and thus the number of each variant to be produced.  So, for example the dead easy (outside the cab detail) to do 'plain black' might also come with shaded lettering which again needs to be designed and tooled up for a printing process involving several passes.  But if the sales anticipation is that the 'plain black' might only sell in limited numbers the cost per unit painted and lettered will increase.  Conversely if the more complex liveries sell in far greater numbers the printing process 'tooling' cost will be spread over far more models thus reducing the cost per unit.   The same of course also applies to tooling variants with say the tender top for a Pre-Group version going into a different size of market from the tender top for a 'plain black' version, so once again the cost per unit can vary. 

 

I'm sure Rails have a pretty good grip on anticipated numbers (they didn't mention this of course as it is important commercial information) and equally they will know the relative costs of each livery and physical detail variant thus they are able to feed this data into their overall costing, and ultimately pricing, strategy for a model requiring a variety of liveries.  From what I have heard from a variety of sources there is currently an overall tendency for the fancy Pre-Group liveries to outsell the 'plain black' variants which obviously reduces the overall unit cost for the fancy livery and presumably might well increase the overall unit cost for the simpler livery.  Somewhere there is probably a balance but don't forget also that marketing might also impact relative prices between different variants.  

 

In other words there's an awful lot of detail those of us not directly involved in the business don't know and as far as we're concerned what it will always come down is whether or not we are prepared to pay for the model, or particular version of a model, at a price we consider reasonable or acceptable.  and there are of course massive differences between individuals about what we might consider our 'right price to pay' for a particular model.

[GreenGiraffe22]

Well, after a discussion with the boyfriend, who is supposed to talk me out of these things, an order for 1734 and 1730 has been placed. No regrets. 

[GreenGiraffe22]

*post duplicated 2 mins later, mods can delete. *

Edited October 17, 2019 by GreenGiraffe22

[Ian Hargrave]

1 hour ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

Well, after a discussion with the boyfriend, who is supposed to talk me out of these things, an order for 1734 and 1730 has been placed. No regrets. 

 

Rien,je ne regrette rien.......to be sung in self justification ( defence ? ) as the postman rings in ...hopefully...a year hence. Worth a few sulks / threats of eternal damnation/cries of “ not another ? “ 

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

Well, after a discussion with the boyfriend, who is supposed to talk me out of these things, an order for 1734 and 1730 has been placed. No regrets. 

 

Both are good fits for your wartime layout; that's hardly your fault!

[phil-b259]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Incidentally for a number of years some of us have been suggesting (badgering might be a better word!) those who matter in the decision making area  for the D to be included in the 'National Collection in Miniature' range  so we are more than happy to see this happening and were mightily impressed by what Dapol have achieved and the thought which has gone into the design. 

 

Never had you down as a SECR modeller Mike, isn't that ornate Wainwright livery a bit too fussy for fans of Swindon's products (tough of course the line into Reading south did host SECR motive power)

[The Stationmaster]

51 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Never had you down as a SECR modeller Mike, isn't that ornate Wainwright livery a bit too fussy for fans of Swindon's products (tough of course the line into Reading south did host SECR motive power)

Ah - it's my collector hat on for the NCIM things and a liking for various Pre-Group items which I don't normally say too much about  (but  don't go telling anybody I do just happen to have a 3 vehicle Birdcage set in SE&CR livery which would probably look rather nice with it Rather along the lines of David Jenkinson's 'funny trains'). 

 

And oddly although I can't definitely remember one from my childhood years it is quite possible that I saw a real D because, as you say,  Reading South had a habit of playing host to a variety of distinctly antiquated SECR engines back in the days when the paper train was the 01.45 London Bridge to Reading.

Edited October 17, 2019 by The Stationmaster

[Compound2632]

53 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Never had you down as a SECR modeller Mike, isn't that ornate Wainwright livery a bit too fussy for fans of Swindon's products (tough of course the line into Reading south did host SECR motive power)

 

3 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

And oddly although I can't definitely remember one from my childhood years it is quite possible that I saw a real D because, as you say,  Reading South had a habit of playing host to a variety of distinctly antiquated SECR engines back in the days when the paper train was the 01.45 London Bridge to Reading.

 

As any resident of Reading knows, it's the South Eastern that has always been the more important of the town's two lines. 

[GreenGiraffe22]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

Both are good fits for your wartime layout; that's hardly your fault!

 

Absolutely! Had rails chosen an  Axxx number for their Maunsell Green version, a decision to order just one  would have been easier! 

[Edwardian]

17 minutes ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

 

Absolutely! Had rails chosen an  Axxx number for their Maunsell Green version, a decision to order just one  would have been easier! 

 

It's almost as if you were specifically targetted ....

 

You'll have to invest in some LMS coaches for that Dunkirk train!

[GreenGiraffe22]

23 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

 

It's almost as if you were specifically targetted ....

 

You'll have to invest in some LMS coaches for that Dunkirk train!

Oh gawd don't! I've already seen photos of a Brighton - Cardiff services going through where my layout is set with something like an LBSCR C2x with a rake of assorted GWR stock 

 

Edit: 

 

Edited October 17, 2019 by GreenGiraffe22

[Ian Hargrave]

12 minutes ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

Oh gawd don't! I've already seen photos of a Brighton - Cardiff services going through where my layout is set with something like an LBSCR C2x with a rake of assorted GWR stock 

 

Edit: 

 

 

Motive power on this route was always a muddle.Can you date this one ?

[GreenGiraffe22]

14 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

 

Motive power on this route was always a muddle.Can you date this one ?

 

I *think* it is around 1937, there is. a similar photo of the same service with an assortment of Southern stock, I'd personally love a range of assorted SR stock RTR that wasn't part of a set, just odds and sods to make up these commuter services. I see ex LSWR 3 sets a lot on this route but not the ones Hornby have done (although I use them as stand ins for now) 

 

Edit: want to recreate this

 

 

There's such a variety of passenger services around Barnham it's a fantastic place to model

 

Edited October 17, 2019 by GreenGiraffe22

[Steamport Southport]

Click the photo it tells you the date....

 

 

 

Southern Railway RJ Billinton C2X class 0-6-0 no. 2554 in charge of a Down (i.e. From Brighton) ECS working comprising only GWR mixed rolling stock at Lake Lane on 15/3/1938.
[J. H. Venn / Mike Morant collection]

 

 

 

 

Jason

Edited October 17, 2019 by Steamport Southport

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, GreenGiraffe22 said:

Oh gawd don't! I've already seen photos of a Brighton - Cardiff services going through where my layout is set with something like an LBSCR C2x with a rake of assorted GWR stock 

 

Edit: 

 

 

GWR stock only ever came as an assortment!

 

Toplight anyone?

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

GWR stock only ever came as an assortment!

 

Toplight anyone?

But which Toplight?  Only a few dozen designs to chose from.