Real Banana vans?

[Tallpaul69]

Hi All,

Did real banana vans ever run in the yellow livery as per the Wrenn model?

 

If so when where these phased out in favour of the bauxite vans with Banana Company stickers?

 

Many thanks
Paul

[Fat Controller]

9 minutes ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Hi All,

Did real banana vans ever run in the yellow livery as per the Wrenn model?

 

If so when where these phased out in favour of the bauxite vans with Banana Company stickers?

 

Many thanks
Paul

I've never seen any evidence that any were painted yellow. Yet another product of the fevered imaginations of model manufacturers, I'm afraid.

 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Fat Controller

[Oldddudders]

According to Bixley, et al, in Southern Wagons Vol 4, the SR painted such vehicles in a light stone colour, with red lettering. So not yellow, but a contrast to the browns and blacks of many other wagons. 

[The Johnster]

Bauxite was used by BR from 1948 until the 70s for fitted stock, and shades of it by the LMS and LNER prior to that.  The GW used slate grey for all goods stock but white with red lettering for refrigerated 'Micas'.  The Wrenn livery is completely fictitious and IIRC applied to an incorrect BR standard 'vanfit' vehicle rather than a banana van proper anyway.  Banana vans were steam heated and unventilated.  Wrenn's generic vanfit, inherited from Hornby Dublo, appeared in spurious big 4 liveries and all sorts of  private owner colours that had little basis in reality but appealed to the train set market.  They pulled similar stunts with the gunpowder van and the old HD Saxa Salt wagon as well, not to mention releasing the 1952 BR Standard 4MT tank in big 4 liveries.  This and the 1956 rebuilt Bulleid pacifics, also ex-HD models, appeared incorrectly in a particularly lurid Southern Railway Malachite Green livery which looked as if it had been on the day trip to Sellafield...

 

Wrenn's 'schtick' was continuing to supply Hornby Dublo models which were considered 'better' than Triang because they were at least to BRSMB standards and for which a demand was perceived, but even at the outset the market was more tailored to the niche 'retro' quality train set market than attempting to produce 'scale' models.  Hornby Dublo had a very good reputation, which is why Triang bought the Hornby name and continue to use it, but 'proper' modellers (or those who considered themselves as such at least) would not accept HD's below scale length locos and coaches, and tinplate was well past it's sell by the late 60s when Binns Road closed.  Hornby Dublo, for all their reputation and superb quality (I can still be fascinated by their Walchearts valve gear running like a sewing machine) were fundamentally crude train set standard models and had terrible problems with Mazak rot.  It worked,, though, because Wrenn are still in the game, whatever my criticisms!

[Steamport Southport]

Bright yellow Saxa Salt vans were real though.

 

As were all the other ones such as Snowdrift, Shaka Salt, ICI, Salt Union, etc.

 

Here's some here.

 

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs.html?limit=45&railway_company=266

 

And this one.

 

https://hmrs.org.uk/photographs/saxa-salt-locn-apex-roof-van-237-circa-1960-r3l-lhs-photo-by-m-ruggles-marked-non-pool-wooden-solebars.html

 

 

 

Jason

Edited October 15, 2019 by Steamport Southport

[Fat Controller]

The Dapol/'Wrenn' Banana van, originally issued by Hornby Dublo over fifty years ago, is a reasonable model of the final Diagram of BR Banana vans, earlier builds having been to the LMS design. Replacing the rather heavy underframe with the Red Panda 8-shoe one immediately improves the model no-end. If you've more skill and patience than me, then removing the raised base for the lettering at the bottom of the LHS also helps to improve the appearance.

One of the problems with the old HD 'SD' range was the attempt to use the one chassis casting for as many wagons as possible, so that the Saxa-Salt and Gunpowder wagons were far too long and wide. 

[BernardTPM]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

The Wrenn livery is completely fictitious and IIRC applied to an incorrect BR standard 'vanfit' vehicle rather than a banana van proper anyway.  Banana vans were steam heated and unventilated.  Wrenn's generic vanfit, inherited from Hornby Dublo, appeared in spurious big 4 liveries and all sorts of  private owner colours that had little basis in reality but appealed to the train set market.

Sorry, not so. The Wrenn Banana vans were BR banana vans, not the standard Vanfit (even the yellow one), a completely different moulding that had a separate roof and the correct doors with three rather than two hinges. They also did a 'sensible' version in plain bauxite.

Mind, you're right about a lot of their liveries though, plenty of ficticious ones.

[BernardTPM]

1 hour ago, Fat Controller said:

One of the problems with the old HD 'SD' range was the attempt to use the one chassis casting for as many wagons as possible, so that the Saxa-Salt and Gunpowder wagons were far too long and wide. 

Not unusual, though arguably 17' 6" as a standard chassis is more useful than 16' that Tri-ang had (though they chose 17' 6" for their newer TT range). Has anyone cut down a HD GWR Mica B (which should be 16' long) to fit the Tri-ang chassis though?

[kevinlms]

12 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 Hornby Dublo had a very good reputation, which is why Triang bought the Hornby name and continue to use it,

It ought to be remembered that the reason for changing the company name to Hornby, rather than Tri-ang was that the Tri-ang name had been sold off after the Dunbee-Combex-Marx group was broken up and sold. The Tri-ang stayed with the prams and similar stuff.

So they needed a new name and already owned the respected 'Hornby' name, so it made obvious sense to use 'Hornby Railways'.

[Tallpaul69]

18 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Hi All,

Did real banana vans ever run in the yellow livery as per the Wrenn model?

 

If so when where these phased out in favour of the bauxite vans with Banana Company stickers?

 

Many thanks
Paul

Thanks to All who replied:-

 

So I think the answer is to weather my two yellow banana vans and run them with my 4 Wrenn  Bauxite ones and two bauxite Ratio kits, although sensibly not next to each other!

Now the next question is:-

Has anyone a pic of a banana train or a portion of banana vans on a train of other vans?

I know there used to be in the 60s Banana Specials from Barry Dock to Acton up the WR main line, so any pics to help replicate this would be appreciated?

 

Many thanks

Paul

[Fat Controller]

6 minutes ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Thanks to All who replied:-

 

So I think the answer is to weather my two yellow banana vans and run them with my 4 Wrenn  Bauxite ones and two bauxite Ratio kits, although sensibly not next to each other!

Now the next question is:-

Has anyone a pic of a banana train or a portion of banana vans on a train of other vans?

I know there used to be in the 60s Banana Specials from Barry Dock to Acton up the WR main line, so any pics to help replicate this would be appreciated?

 

Many thanks

Paul

There's a photo of one behind an EE Type 3 at Newport on the 'Railways in South Wales' Facebook site. Not sure if you can browse on it without being a member; Brian Rolley, who posts on here, is one of the administrators.

[Gordon A]

Avonmouth was a port for importing bananas for a while and Southampton.

Surprisingly Paul Bartlett has only one in his collection https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/?q=banana

Gordon A

 

 

 

[Fat Controller]

1 minute ago, Gordon A said:

Avonmouth was a port for importing bananas for a while and Southampton.

Surprisingly Paul Bartlett has only one in his collection https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/?q=banana

Gordon A

 

 

 

Try this link instead:-

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brbanana

Apart from the BR Standard and LMS-derived vans, two sorts of ex-Southern vans lasted until the end of the traffic. One had a single-centre arc roof. the other resembled the standard SR van, but with no end-vents, and SR-style vacuum brakes. I've done both, the former type from an ABS kit, the latter from a Ratio one, with ABS brake-gear.

Apart from the two ports Gordon mentions, Barry and Preston both handled the traffic.

[TheSignalEngineer]

17 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

The Dapol/'Wrenn' Banana van, originally issued by Hornby Dublo over fifty years ago, is a reasonable model of the final Diagram of BR Banana vans, earlier builds having been to the LMS design. Replacing the rather heavy underframe with the Red Panda 8-shoe one immediately improves the model no-end. If you've more skill and patience than me, then removing the raised base for the lettering at the bottom of the LHS also helps to improve the appearance.

One of the problems with the old HD 'SD' range was the attempt to use the one chassis casting for as many wagons as possible, so that the Saxa-Salt and Gunpowder wagons were far too long and wide. 

Here's one I made earlier

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

With steam to spare by geoff7918, on Flickr

 

Possibly the Moor St to Avonmouth empties between Hall Green and Yardley Wood

Edited October 16, 2019 by TheSignalEngineer
link updated

[Steamport Southport]

Can't believe no one's mentioned Garston. Huge docks with significant importation of bananas.

 

Bananas in, lambs out. We've even got a Superlambanana due to the huge amounts of trade in them.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Dunsignalling]

18 hours ago, BernardTPM said:

Not unusual, though arguably 17' 6" as a standard chassis is more useful than 16' that Tri-ang had (though they chose 17' 6" for their newer TT range). Has anyone cut down a HD GWR Mica B (which should be 16' long) to fit the Tri-ang chassis though?

IIRC the Tri-ang OO chassis has a wheelbase that scales out at 9' 6" so isn't correct for very much.

 

I cut down a HD Mica some years back and built the chassis using kit leftovers. Despite the 16' length, that body style should have a 10' wheelbase. However, it's not a conversion for the faint-hearted. One has to be fairly brutal to cut the thick plastic and it's easy to wreck it.

 

The need has passed, in any case. Building the Parkside kit for the X7 is very much easier and produces a better model (the X8 can also be made from it by fitting Morton brake in place of the DC provided).

 

My next HD body is staying the original length but with new ends to make an X9 and will get a Bachmann underframe.

 

John

Edited October 16, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[BernardTPM]

Oh yes, I agree it wouldn't make a scale model, but it would be the right length, no more than that. 17' 6" was chosen by Trix as well when they made plastic wagon bodies, but to 3.8mm scale which scaled out at 16'6" in 4mm scale so their 16t Mineral and Pig Iron wagons are scale length by luck.

[Clive Mortimore]

On 15/10/2019 at 16:38, The Johnster said:

Bauxite was used by BR from 1948 until the 70s for fitted stock, and shades of it by the LMS and LNER prior to that.  The GW used slate grey for all goods stock but white with red lettering for refrigerated 'Micas'.  The Wrenn livery is completely fictitious and IIRC applied to an incorrect BR standard 'vanfit' vehicle rather than a banana van proper anyway.  Banana vans were steam heated and unventilated.  Wrenn's generic vanfit, inherited from Hornby Dublo, appeared in spurious big 4 liveries and all sorts of  private owner colours that had little basis in reality but appealed to the train set market.  They pulled similar stunts with the gunpowder van and the old HD Saxa Salt wagon as well, not to mention releasing the 1952 BR Standard 4MT tank in big 4 liveries.  This and the 1956 rebuilt Bulleid pacifics, also ex-HD models, appeared incorrectly in a particularly lurid Southern Railway Malachite Green livery which looked as if it had been on the day trip to Sellafield...

 

Wrenn's 'schtick' was continuing to supply Hornby Dublo models which were considered 'better' than Triang because they were at least to BRSMB standards and for which a demand was perceived, but even at the outset the market was more tailored to the niche 'retro' quality train set market than attempting to produce 'scale' models.  Hornby Dublo had a very good reputation, which is why Triang bought the Hornby name and continue to use it, but 'proper' modellers (or those who considered themselves as such at least) would not accept HD's below scale length locos and coaches, and tinplate was well past it's sell by the late 60s when Binns Road closed.  Hornby Dublo, for all their reputation and superb quality (I can still be fascinated by their Walchearts valve gear running like a sewing machine) were fundamentally crude train set standard models and had terrible problems with Mazak rot.  It worked,, though, because Wrenn are still in the game, whatever my criticisms!

Prior to WW2 yes banana vans were steam heated as part of the ripening process. Post WW2 the process had changed, I think it was the improvement in ships refrigeration and the banana vans were no longer needed to start the ripening as it was done in the warehouse. The vans remained insulated.

 

I think most BR banana vans saw more service as fitted heads on coal trains in South Wales than they did transporting bananas.

[The Johnster]

7 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Thanks to All who replied:-

 

So I think the answer is to weather my two yellow banana vans and run them with my 4 Wrenn  Bauxite ones and two bauxite Ratio kits, although sensibly not next to each other!

Now the next question is:-

Has anyone a pic of a banana train or a portion of banana vans on a train of other vans?

I know there used to be in the 60s Banana Specials from Barry Dock to Acton up the WR main line, so any pics to help replicate this would be appreciated?

 

Many thanks

Paul

 

15 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Prior to WW2 yes banana vans were steam heated as part of the ripening process. Post WW2 the process had changed, I think it was the improvement in ships refrigeration and the banana vans were no longer needed to start the ripening as it was done in the warehouse. The vans remained insulated.

 

I think most BR banana vans saw more service as fitted heads on coal trains in South Wales than they did transporting bananas.

Iron ore traffic as well, including Llanharan-East Moors and imported ore Barry Docks-Corby/Scunthorpe.  These trains were worked at least as far as Gloucester and probably Banbury by Canton Halls, Hymeks later.  I believe the vans were ‘ballasted’ with sandbags.  

[Wickham Green]

16 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

Iron ore traffic as well, including Llanharan-East Moors and imported ore Barry Docks-Corby/Scunthorpe.  These trains were worked at least as far as Gloucester and probably Banbury by Canton Halls, Hymeks later.  I believe the vans were ‘ballasted’ with sandbags.  

The grey cells seem to recall that the Southern vans which ended up in Barry scrapyard had a good layer of concrete on the floor.

[The Stationmaster]

On 16/10/2019 at 09:41, Tallpaul69 said:

Thanks to All who replied:-

 

So I think the answer is to weather my two yellow banana vans and run them with my 4 Wrenn  Bauxite ones and two bauxite Ratio kits, although sensibly not next to each other!

Now the next question is:-

Has anyone a pic of a banana train or a portion of banana vans on a train of other vans?

I know there used to be in the 60s Banana Specials from Barry Dock to Acton up the WR main line, so any pics to help replicate this would be appreciated?

 

Many thanks

Paul

Steam hauled a couple of my pictures of one at Reading will be found near the beginning of this thread -

 

 

And diesel hauled you fill find a picture of one passing through Cardiff General behind a very new and shiny D6898 in this thread -

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66924-the-stationmaster-goes-train-spotting-part-1/&/topic/66924-the-stationmaster-goes-train-spotting-part-1/?hl=%2Bths%2B%2Bstationmaster%2B%2Bgoes%2B%2Btrain%2B%2Bspotting

 

[Chuffed 1]

Reference the Moor St to Avonmouth empties photo above, the Birmingham banana rooms (where the produce was ripened and boxed) were directly beneath the small goods yard at Moor St, and had a lift that could lower a van at a time down to the ‘rooms’.

The vans were steam heated to protect the fruit - bananas blacken below 6 degrees, which is why putting them in a fridge is a bad idea!
On a similar theme, cattle were offloaded a mile away at Bordesley station and until 1959 were driven through the streets to the slaughterhouses but after one steer broke away and nearly eviscerated a bus queue in Digbeth, the council decreed that henceforward all transfers had to be done by lorry - the image of go-ahead Brum with the first major shopping mall didn’t quite gel with market men waving lassoos from the back of a 3 ton flatbed!

 

Make an interesting cameo though!

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

21 hours ago, Chuffed 1 said:

The vans were steam heated to protect the fruit - bananas blacken below 6 degrees, which is why putting them in a fridge is a bad idea!
On a similar theme, cattle were offloaded a mile away at Bordesley station and until 1959 were driven through the streets to the slaughterhouses but after one steer broke away and nearly eviscerated a bus queue in Digbeth, the council decreed that henceforward all transfers had to be done by lorry........

I can remember cattle wagons being shunted onto the remains of the Duddeston Viaduct at Bordesley in the late 1950s. I never saw the driving of cattle from there but my Grandmother worked by the cattle depot during WW1 and my mother worked near to the markets in the 1940s. Both had stories of cattle escaping and running amok around the Digbeth and Bradford Street areas. 

I remember the Banana vans in Moor Street and there was also a banana shed in the old Grand Junction yard at Curzon Street when I was working there in the mid 1960s. We had a regular supply of fruit too ripe for the shops from there every Friday, usually a carrier bag full in exchange for a pint of Mild.

[The Stationmaster]

On 16/10/2019 at 09:41, Tallpaul69 said:

Thanks to All who replied:-

 

So I think the answer is to weather my two yellow banana vans and run them with my 4 Wrenn  Bauxite ones and two bauxite Ratio kits, although sensibly not next to each other!

Now the next question is:-

Has anyone a pic of a banana train or a portion of banana vans on a train of other vans?

I know there used to be in the 60s Banana Specials from Barry Dock to Acton up the WR main line, so any pics to help replicate this would be appreciated?

 

Many thanks

Paul

Herewith a very new and shiny D6898 working a Barry - Acton banana special through Cardiff General in June 1964.  The Type 3 worked the trains as far as Swindon where it was replaced by more traditional WR traction.  Originally posted in this thread -

 

 

 

One month later sees traditional traction in the shape of 6988 on a banana train at Reading.  Photos originally posted on this thread -