Fictional Speedlink question

[BR37414]

Evening Chaps,

 

I'm currently gearing up to start construction of my fictional Scottish/West Highland themed layout that is set in the late 80s, early 90s. 

 

I plan on having a papermill similar to the one at Corpach which will recieve pulp bales in and paper out in VAA/VDA/VGA vans, and slurry in ICAs. Four KFAs will be also used for paper loading.

 

There will be a timber loading siding located in the yard (much like Fort William) which will receive OTA and OCAs for log loading. Near the main station will be a fuel depot that will recieve TTAs, and a goods shed that will take additional VAA/VDAs.

 

Based on that info, I have determined that it will need about 3 seperate trains per day (operating session) in order to move the required wagons due to the length of my passing loops, which are long enough to accommodate a 37 with a BG, 2 mk2f FO and 2 Mk3 sleepes. 

 

With that in mind, would it be prototypical to run mixed trains or should I run them in dedicated trains?

 

Just looking for thoughts on this, as I was struggling to answer this question through West Highland pictures. The new formations book does show mixed trains, but seems to be all for Corpach or the Alcan works until much later in the 90s under privatization.

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Alex

[Flood]

I would suggest that you buy yourself a copy of Freight Only Vol 3: Wales & Scotland by Michael Rhodes and Paul Shannon. This was published in November 1988 and lists all the freight workings and trip workings for those two areas. Whilst you're not modelling an actual scenario the book gives a wealth of information and informative photos.

 

To summarise the West Highland section the book states that there were two trains from Mossend each day (one to Mallaig Junction and one to Corpach) and two returning (both from Corpach). The oil to and from Mallaig travelled on the following passenger services, 2Y55 the 1610 Fort William - Mallaig and 2Y58 the 1845 Mallaig - Fort William. These wagons still needed vacuum brakes in order to be compatible with the coaching stock.

 

Therefore I reckon that all of your freight traffic will be in Speedlink trains except for the Mallaig oil being in a mixed freight/passenger formation. The Speedlink formations themselves can be completely mixed with oil tanks, PRAs (the china clay wagons recently made by Kernow), VAA/VDA and timber wagons all running together. These two photos should give you an idea:

 

 

I just typed "Corpach freight" (without the speech marks) into Flickr and found a number of interesting photos.

 

Hopefully all this is of use.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Flood

[BR37414]

Flood,

 

As always your knowledge and direction are flawless. I never considered having only two services (so simple that I missed that). One to the papermill and one to the main yard. 

 

I will try and locate the book you suggested. 

 

Again your search is so simple, I never tried that. Always looked up Corpach paper or corpach 37/4. I'll give that a whirl as well.

 

Do you know if the freight services had to marshalled as such to take passing loops into consideration or not?

 

That could provide some complexity to the timetable if they didn't as to not have two long freights meeting at along the layout. There is three passing loops between the fiddle yard and the main yard on my design. 

 

Thanks again,

 

Alex

[Flood]

The Corpach trains also shunted at Mallaig Junction Yard and there was a daily trip from there to Fort William Station, British Alcan, West Highland Oil and Corpach (a single Class 20) so basically you can run anything on any train. I wouldn't have thought passing loop length would have restricted the trains, the reason for two services a day being that they linked in with the inter-regional Mossend services.

 

Just for information the timings at Mallaig Junc Yard were as follows:

 

7Y31 1950 Mossend - Mallaig Junction arr 0059

Y02 Daily trip

7D19 Corpach - Mossend (Mallaig Junction arr 1159 dep 1219), Mossend arr 1830

7Y37 1152 Mossend - Corpach (Mallaig Junction arr 1818 dep 1852)

7D10 Corpach - Mossend (Mallaig Junction arr 1850 dep 1910), Mossend arr 0044

 

By sending everything to the main yard first and then running either a trip or also continuing an ex Mossend service to the paper mill may well add some more shunting interest for you.

 

Don't forget that this is all for your layout and, whilst I appreciate you want a reasonable degree of accuracy, you can basically do as you like.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Flood

[BR37414]

Outstanding info Flood.

 

Would that book also have the services they would connect to?

 

Was, for example, 7D10 made up of wagons bound for Wales and 7D19 were bound for the midlands or further south?

 

Or was that mixed and basically Mossends shunting job?

 

Model railroading is just that your right, but I enjoy the prototype research as much as adding ETH cables and air pipes to my 37/4s

 

Since being introduced to British modelling, it has been much more interesting to me than the Canadian trains I'm use to. 

 

Thanks again!

 

Alex

[Flood]

The services starting and finishing for each major yard are listed. In the case of Mossend there were 97 trunk services that started or finished per day of which 47 were Speedlink! Therefore trying to relate wagons to a specific service can only really be done using photographs and could change from day to day.

 

I hadn't realised that you aren't in Britain so I hope you are able to source the book with relative ease.

 

One final point is the reason for Speedlink being created in the first place. Whereas, until the introduction of Speedlink, wagons could be shunted a number of times in multiple yards during the course of a service it was decreed that a wagon could be shunted no more than twice - once at the starting location and finally at the location nearest to the wagon's discharge point.

 

This basically means that any wagons for Corpach would be shunted at Mallaig Junction Yard when they had arrived at 0059, ready to be trip worked to Corpach. However, those wagons for Corpach on service 7Y37 would be left alone when the train arrived at Mallaig Junction Yard at 1818 although other wagons for other destinations would have been removed. Likewise, in the other direction, wagons from Corpach would have had others added at Mallaig Junction Yard but would not have been shunted themselves.

[D1059]

An excuse for some more WHL freight porn

 

Glen Falloch Freight by Stephen Dance, on Flickr

 

County March Summit Freight - Explored by Stephen Dance, on Flickr

[ColinK]

If you want toco sider something different, not on your line but still in Scotland, there has recently been some discussion on RMweb about freightliner wagons being included in passenger trains to Aberdeen. 

[BR37414]

I certainly didn't realize there was that many services out of Mossend. Finding out what went where would be a monsterous task.

 

Thats a good thing to know about the shunting procedure, that will certainly make for some interesting shunting. 

 

I tried to find a copy of said book on the intetnet and so far no luck. However, I did have luck in sourcing a book about the china clay workings that I saw you recommend in another post.

 

Thanks for more pictures D1059, that is exactly what I envision. LLB 37/4 with some weathered stock behind it. Perfect!

 

ColinK, I had considered that. I have purchased some KFAs to make the 30 foot containers to load paper rolls on. Having one or two for some sort of container service wouldn't be a bad idea. Thanks for that!

 

[Rivercider]

As Flood has already said in his comprehensive reply you can, within reason, either complicate or simplify the working depending on how interesting you find shunting and marshalling.

I don't know whether the trains to Mossend would have been sent away rough-marshalled for Mossend to sort out, or whether Mallaig Junction might have been required to form trains up in sections (by shunting tag). A preformed train might help at Mossend if there was a tight connection going out.

 

The workings changed over the years, I have the list of Speedlink workings from 17 May 1982:

 

6D10 07.07 SX Mallaig Junction - Mossend (13.27)

6B02 05.20 SX Mossend - Mallaig Junction (12.04)

6D12 12.40 SX Corpach - Mossend (19.24)

6B13 12.38 SX Mossend - Corpach (19.22)

 

At that date clay empties for Cornwall would then have gone forward on either

6V92 15.50 SX Mossend - Severn Tunnel Junction

6V93 09.05 MSX Mossend - Severn Tunnel Junction / 6V93 05.44 SO Mossend - Severn Tunnel Junction.

 

cheers

 

 

 

[Flood]

Just for completeness Freight Only states the following West Country services to and from Mossend in 1988:

 

7S97 MSX Gloucester - Mossend arr 1559

 

6V92 16.10 SX Mossend - Tavistock Junction

7V93 07.30 SX Mossend - Stoke Gifford

 

Whilst there is only one service from South of Birmingham listed, other trains to Mossend arrive from Bescot, Warrington and Carlisle. It is, therefore, likely that China Clay traffic would take another service from Cornwall to Gloucester or further North to then be shunted into a service for Mossend.

 

I have also added the Mossend arrival times for the West Highland trains onto my previous post.

Edited October 16, 2019 by Flood

[BR37414]

Thank you for adding that info Flood. Following your advice in searching Flickr,

It produced pictures of Speedlink services from St. Blazey to Gloucester. I searched "Gloucester to cornwall speedlink"

 

1987 - 47258 leading what was identified as 6B43 St. Blazey to Severn Tunnel Junction, which was changed to Gloucester New Yard in October of that year. Sharing is disabled, but in the photo I think I can make out PRAs on the back. 

 

13/7/1989 - 37672 and 37671 leading a train, with PRA wagons in the mix. Only intentified as 15.45 Speedlink from St. Blazey. Photo by Michael McNicholas

 

A Gloucester to Mossend search produced one photo.

 

15/03/1991 with 90043 with what the photographer says is a 12 airbrake equipped wagon 6S97. Photograph by Michael Hart.

 

 

I am going to scrounge for more pictures and see if I can recognize any more wagons on other services ex Mossend.

 

It now provides me a use for my Heljan RfD liveried class 47, as I can have it on work the wagons in the fiddle yard and have it stabled in the sparsly sceniced part of it.

 

Thanks for adding that info Rivercider, all this info I am trying to soak up.

 

Cheers!

 

Alex

Edited October 17, 2019 by BR37414
Spelling mistake

[saxokid]

13 hours ago, D1059 said:

An excuse for some more WHL freight porn

 

Glen Falloch Freight by Stephen Dance, on Flickr

 

County March Summit Freight - Explored by Stephen Dance, on Flickr

Real classic mix traffic flows there Steve!!

great pictures...

[Flood]

10 hours ago, BR37414 said:

It now provides me a use for my Heljan RfD liveried class 47, as I can have it on work the wagons in the fiddle yard and have it stabled in the sparsly sceniced part of it.

 

Strictly speaking 47s were too heavy for the West Highland but

 

1. It is your layout

and 2. you could state that only certain lines on your layout couldn't be used by a 47. This could mean a "forced" loco change in the main yard for some freight trains from a 47 to a 37

 

Along with the fact that you can use a single class 20 for the trip working as well this is sounding like a really interesting model.

[BR37414]

You are most correct, and that was one of the first things I learned about the West Highland line. My love of the 37 is what lead me to model the region. 

 

My layout is 11 x 20, is multi level point to point but with a lower continuous circuitand multi level. Over the majority of the layout will be class 37 only, with a class 20 and 26 for trip workings or running multiple with the 37s. The 47 will be restricted to the lower level circuit track, and will simulate the the speedlink service coming into and leaving Mossend (the fiddle yard on the lower level), along with a couple non scottish 37/0s and 37/5s.

 

Sorry for the confusion.

 

Thanks again!

 

Alex

[Rivercider]

20 hours ago, BR37414 said:

Thank you for adding that info Flood. Following your advice in searching Flickr,

It produced pictures of Speedlink services from St. Blazey to Gloucester. I searched "Gloucester to cornwall speedlink"

 

1987 - 47258 leading what was identified as 6B43 St. Blazey to Severn Tunnel Junction, which was changed to Gloucester New Yard in October of that year. Sharing is disabled, but in the photo I think I can make out PRAs on the back. 

 

13/7/1989 - 37672 and 37671 leading a train, with PRA wagons in the mix. Only intentified as 15.45 Speedlink from St. Blazey. Photo by Michael McNicholas

 

 

A Gloucester to Mossend search produced one photo.

 

15/03/1991 with 90043 with what the photographer says is a 12 airbrake equipped wagon 6S97. Photograph by Michael Hart.

 

 

 

I am going to scrounge for more pictures and see if I can recognize any more wagons on other services ex Mossend.

 

It now provides me a use for my Heljan RfD liveried class 47, as I can have it on work the wagons in the fiddle yard and have it stabled in the sparsly sceniced part of it.

 

Thanks for adding that info Rivercider, all this info I am trying to soak up.

 

Cheers!

 

Alex

You have already found 6B43 St Blazey to STJ (and in 1987 later diverted to Gloucester)

6M17 11.30 Tavistock Junction to Bescot was another Speedlink working from the West Country which conveyed clay traffic

(and also 6M72 ST Blazey - Cliffe Vale, which conveyed clay for the Potteries.)

 

In the 1980s I was working on the Western Region on the freight side of things, I found the growth of Speedlink exciting.

Sadly as we now know it was a false dawn for Railfreight,

 

cheers

[BR37414]

3 hours ago, Rivercider said:

In the 1980s I was working on the Western Region on the freight side of things, I found the growth of Speedlink exciting.

Sadly as we now know it was a false dawn for Railfreight,

 

cheers

 

I have enjoyed researching the freight side of BR in its various forms. One thing I haven't been successful in finding out, is why BR turned against Speedlink and ultimately Railfreight? 

 

Seems kind of short sighted losing all that traffic to lorries, and then there is privatization. 

 

Were you a driver, if I may ask?

[Simon Lee]

5 hours ago, BR37414 said:

 

I have enjoyed researching the freight side of BR in its various forms. One thing I haven't been successful in finding out, is why BR turned against Speedlink and ultimately Railfreight? 

 

Seems kind of short sighted losing all that traffic to lorries, and then there is privatization. 

 

Were you a driver, if I may ask?

 

I dont think BR turned against freight as such, it was more a reaction to the changing world with changes in living habits, external industrial disputes and closures, and the introduction of the 38 ton lorry.

 

I worked in Railfreight  from 1981 until I retired in 2015, firstly at Dover on Trainferry ops, then Dollands Moor tunnel ops and finally Doncaster in control for EWS/DB.

 

Early 80s there was a lot of wagon load traffic came from Europe, and was distributed via Speedlink, and then via the local trip networks from the hub yards. 

Whilst under BR as a whole costs were, l guess, not fully realised or allocated to a particular flow of traffic. Having said that locally costs in the Dover /Ashford were kept on quite a tight reign. 

If you consider say household coal, we had a small flow from Midlands/South Wales to Ashford, but as more and more people went over to central heating that flow naturally came to an end. In the last months the biggest user was the army for the camps at Ashford and Lydd.

 

Other strange flows were 2 wagons of shoes every couple of months from Italy to Leeds. Wagons of furniture Yugoslavia to Canterbury, Aylesbury and Wellingborough.

 

In the run up to shadow privatisation a lot of these flows must have been examined for cost/profits and gradually these dropped away and finished. Canterbury for example there was a Senior Railman who shunted the freight services and did the the unit shunts/attachments. The booking clerk took care of the paperwork, when NSE came along their services were suddenly only available at a price.

 

As another example of loss of traffic, once the 38 ton lorry became firmly established Transfesa, who sent lots of wagons of perishables both to Paddock Wood and to North of England fruit markets, started to tranship wagons into artics at the French ports, for final delivery to the markets in the UK that saved both money for them and time, depending on the destination. 

 

Hope the above is of some interest/use. 

 

 

[Rivercider]

10 hours ago, BR37414 said:

 

I have enjoyed researching the freight side of BR in its various forms. One thing I haven't been successful in finding out, is why BR turned against Speedlink and ultimately Railfreight? 

 

Seems kind of short sighted losing all that traffic to lorries, and then there is privatization. 

 

Were you a driver, if I may ask?

My railway career was almost entirely spent behind a desk.

I was a TOPS clerk in the Bristol Area Freight Centre 1978-85, then at Swindon WR HQ in freight planning/freight operations 1985-88.

Then back to Bristol AFC 1988-91. After that spells at Westbury and Newport and back to Bristol dodging office closures until 2007!

 

I personally felt the splitting up of the Speedlink network into smaller fractions (Speedlink Coal Network, Railfreight Distribution, Metals etc) did not help the freight network, but I was only a (very) small cog in a big machine.

 

cheers