Northern rail could be nationalised

[4630]

Reported this afternoon after Transport Secretary Grant Shapps appearance before the House Of Commons' Transport Select Committee this morning.

 

Northern rail could be nationalised

 

Topic created as a piece of information affecting the railway, rather than an invite for a debate about the pros and cons of nationalisation.

[lmsforever]

Interesting if it happens what about the mayors of Manchester Liverpool wanting to take it over and the cost would be high plus the new rolling stock who will pay for the transfer of contracts etc.Dont think this will  happen.

[mdvle]

Regardless of party, anything like this at the moment has to be considered as posturing for the wanted/expected election.

 

As the linked article states the poor performance of Northern is not new but rather an ongoing, chronic problem so any "sudden" need to make changes should have the unofficial reasoning considered.

 

It may, in addition to the election issue, be a case of the government trying to take the lesser of 2 evils given that the article also mentions ongoing financial losses which could mean the government perhaps expecting Arriva to hand back the franchise, which would publicly be worse than the government stepping in for other reasons.

[4630]

1 minute ago, mdvle said:

 

It may, in addition to the election issue, be a case of the government trying to take the lesser of 2 evils given that the article also mentions ongoing financial losses which could mean the government perhaps expecting Arriva to hand back the franchise, which would publicly be worse than the government stepping in for other reasons.

 

Yes, that's probably one of the key considerations in the collective DfT mind.

 

Arriva UK Trains (which after all is part of Deutsche Bahn DB) has been reported for sometime as in negotiations with DfT about the financial aspects of the franchise and the consequent impact of late delivery of infrastructure improvements by Network Rail and its contractors.

 

As always though, the situation is far more complex than just a single issue and Northern has not covered itself in glory since its inception. 

 

 

[4630]

52 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

Interesting if it happens what about the mayors of Manchester Liverpool wanting to take it over and the cost would be high plus the new rolling stock who will pay for the transfer of contracts etc.Dont think this will  happen.

 

Andy Burnham, Mayor of Greater Manchester, is due to do an interview on the PM programme on Radio 4, sometime between 5 and 6pm.

[DavidB-AU]

From the Guardian.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/oct/16/northern-rail-should-be-renationalised-says-grant-shapps-transport-secretary

[TravisM]

I really do hate this term of “renationalised” as the case of the railways, they have never been privatised as portrayed in the media.  The train operating company (TOC) operates services on behalf of HM government and the DfT who specify the level of service.

 

Network Rail is state owned, with the exception of Grand Central, Hull Trains who are open access operators, all other passenger services are state controlled.  When bidding for a franchise, the DfT tell you what you can run, who to get it from unless you specify that your going to renew the whole fleet and what the spec will be.  It’s not a true franchise because your messing about with short time periods which don’t encourage investment from the franchisee who look to invest over say a 25 year time frame.

 

I think a totally different outlook should be applied to running the railway in England, something like in Scotland and Wales where the livery remains the same, just the operator changes.  Every time the franchise changes, you get a uniform change, station signage changes and the fleet gets either repainted or revinyled.  Why not set out in the tender documents that the train and station schemes are neutral and remain the same with the next franchise period comes up, therefore saving a bundle of cash.

 

Sorry this is long winded and sounds angry but I’m in considerable pain and can’t sleep, so I’ve decided to have a rant and take my mind off it lol.

Edited October 17, 2019 by jools1959

[mdvle]

9 hours ago, jools1959 said:

  It’s not a true franchise because your messing about with short time periods which don’t encourage investment from the franchisee who look to invest over say a 25 year time frame.

 

An interesting question would be would the franchisee do any major investments even if they were given a 25 year franchise?

 

A lot of the chaos around franchises of late has been caused by franchisees losing money or infrastructure projects taking longer than expected, neither of which would necessarily be solved by longer franchises.

 

My perhaps faulty recollection is the biggest issue raised years ago was around getting new rolling stock as the financing partner would want expectations that any purchase could be used longer than the short franchise, but that issue seems to have been solved given the amount of new rolling stock appearing (and in one case appearing and already scheduled to be replaced after maybe 2 years of service).

 

Which sort of leaves maybe providing extra service, provided by self financing the rolling stock without DfT guarantees, but how realistic is that?  Most/many of the routes where it might be possible seem to have capacity issues that would make it problematic, and the areas with capacity typically need government subsidies to exist.

 

[royaloak]

22 hours ago, 4630 said:

As always though, the situation is far more complex than just a single issue and Northern has not covered itself in glory since its inception. 

As the original franchise was let on a no growth basis but ridership actually increased 20% (or something like that) they were basically stuffed from the start, and although they managed to get some extra trains from GWR and ScotRail it isnt anywhere near enough so they have suffered chronic overcrowding from the start.

 

The new (very expensive) trains are now coming into service but it it too little too late plus of course the increased leasing costs cannot be met by the (relative) low fares charged (a BR legacy) so the franchise, surprise surprise, cannot hit the financial targets and so the franchise holder, surprise surprise, wants to renegotiate.

Edited October 17, 2019 by royaloak

[mdvle]

20 minutes ago, royaloak said:

As the original franchise was let on a no growth basis but ridership actually increased 20% (or something like that)

 

Don't know how it relates to the start of the franchise but the linked news stories indicate that ridership has dropped in the last year.

[The Stationmaster]

The amusing, and - as ever - worrying thing about this is that some clown of a politician actually things that placing a rail service under somebody else's control would actually put things right and end engineering work at weekends and speed up the delivery of new trains and infrastructure changes.  Maybe he will go back to using his other name if this turns out to achieve absolutely nothing?

[Reorte]

7 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

Don't know how it relates to the start of the franchise but the linked news stories indicate that ridership has dropped in the last year.

 

Last year's timetabling issues hit Northern pretty badly, which I'm guessing explain's the drop. They're still busy at rush hour on the Buxton line.

[4630]

38 minutes ago, royaloak said:

As the original franchise was let on a no growth basis but ridership actually increased 20% (or something like that)

 

16 minutes ago, mdvle said:

 

Don't know how it relates to the start of the franchise but the linked news stories indicate that ridership has dropped in the last year.

 

I believe that what royaloak was correctly referring to was that the original 'Northern Rail' franchise operated by Serco-Abellio (ie the franchisee before Arriva took over the current Northern franchise) was let on a 'no growth' basis.

 

I don't have the figures to hand, but I'd suggest that the ridership reduction that has happened over the last year has been influenced by the variable level of services that have been operated by Northern.  Especially, but not exclusively, to service cancellations, timekeeping and short formed rolling stock around Greater Manchester, and the impact at that time of long running strike action by some Northern staff. 

Edited October 17, 2019 by 4630

[newbryford]

9 hours ago, royaloak said:

 

The new (very expensive) trains are now coming into service but it it too little too late plus of course the increased leasing costs cannot be met by the (relative) low fares charged (a BR legacy) so the franchise, surprise surprise, cannot hit the financial targets and so the franchise holder, surprise surprise, wants to renegotiate.

 

I once read (about 5 years ago) that Northern services had the lowest average fare of any TOC in the UK.

 

And this can't be helped by the lack of revenue collection after about 6-7pm as the on-board staff seemingly do no more than sit in the back cab and open/close the doors despite them earning commission with onboard ticket sales. (An inside source intimated that management turned a blind eye as it wasn't worth the hassle if the staff were confronted by an inebriated "customer")

It's pretty well known on my local line that it's virtually free train travel in those hours as they are unstaffed stations, even though ticket machines have recently appeared and you are supposed to purchase a ticket or "promise to pay" before travel or be subject to penalty fares.

In fact, onboard revenue protection also seems to have been severely reduced during the daytime since the introduction of ticket machines at unstaffed stations. 

Edited October 17, 2019 by newbryford
typo

[DavidB-AU]

The government has taken the first step towards nationalising the beleaguered Northern rail franchise, a move that would bring a second train operator back under state control.

https://www.ft.com/content/b45e447c-f01e-11e9-bfa4-b25f11f42901

 

 

[newbryford]

I've just had a day out on Northern, courtesy of a ticket offer in the local papers (and probably contributing towards the low fare average..............!)

 

What was quite noticeable, was the reasonable number of 150s that have been facelifted and repainted, but did not carry any Northern branding.

[Barry O]

Listen up..they cant continue to cover upthe complete ineptitude of senior management at Netqork Fail..cripes they cant even get platforms built..

And, as for defranchising rail schems..try travelling on LNER which is rapidly reducing the quality of its services by not providing the service it claims to do.

 

Add in DfT who seem to know the square root of badger all about the railways it would be better for the review to nail down the real problems.

 

I also understand that the Mayor of London is more proactive to help sort the problems. Mayor of Manchester is just following his party line..

Baz

[4630]

9 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

What was quite noticeable, was the reasonable number of 150s that have been facelifted and repainted, but did not carry any Northern branding.

 

That's interesting.

 

I'd photographed 150150 at Brighouse on 4th July 2019 sans Northern branding.  I didn't think anything of it other than it was an unusual livery oddity and assumed that after the refurb it had been returned to Newton Heath TMD for the branding to be applied locally there, but that the unit had been pressed into service before it could be done.  The unit was working 1J23, 16.57 Leeds to Southport.

   

 

I also caught 150128 without branding at Brighouse on 23rd August 2019.  This time the unit was working 5Z51, 07.35 Doncaster West Yard to Newton Heath TMD.  I presume that the unit was returning after refurbishment.

 

Edited October 18, 2019 by 4630

[APOLLO]

I don't mind who runs Northern - as long as it is run efficiently and the trains run on time, which presently is not the case.

 

My daughter has just started at Liverpool University, commuting daily from Wigan. The line was electrified with "new" 4 car 319's a couple of years ago. These trains are quite good for this journey, and 4 cars gives adequate seating most times. , The service timetable is good, two trains / hour, one a stopper and one a limited stop express which carries on to Preston / Blackpool. Which is all fine so long as there is a driver to drive them. At least a couple of times a week various trains are cancelled "due to shortage of driver / staff" - This is just not good enough today. £47 / week for a weekly ticket aint peanuts either. I've told her to look into delay / repay.

 

The other twin daughter has started at Lancaster Uni, living in there she travels home some weekends. Virgin trains, again a good nearly half hourly service Lancaster to Wigan, takes 30 mins or so and an advance return with railcard is under a tenner. Good punctual service (up to now), ticket cost value for money. I wonder what will happen to this service under it's new operator soon ?

 

Brit15

[TheSignalEngineer]

2 hours ago, 4630 said:

 I didn't think anything of it other than it was an unusual livery oddity and assumed that after the refurb it had been returned to Newton Heath TMD for the branding to be applied locally there, but that the unit had been pressed into service before it could be done.

We've still got 323s running in the pre-Arriva livery with the old sticky back plastic branding pulled off.

[Reorte]

I see more reliveried Northern 150s than not these days although they quite often turn up in pairs with old and new together.

[royaloak]

18 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

I once read (about 5 years ago) that Northern services had the lowest average fare of any TOC in the UK.

 

And this can't be helped by the lack of revenue collection after about 6-7pm as the on-board staff seemingly do no more than sit in the back cab and open/close the doors despite them earning commission with onboard ticket sales. (An inside source intimated that management turned a blind eye as it wasn't worth the hassle if the staff were confronted by an inebriated "customer")

It's pretty well known on my local line that it's virtually free train travel in those hours as they are unstaffed stations, even though ticket machines have recently appeared and you are supposed to purchase a ticket or "promise to pay" before travel or be subject to penalty fares.

In fact, onboard revenue protection also seems to have been severely reduced during the daytime since the introduction of ticket machines at unstaffed stations. 

Case history has led to this situation where staff were out doing revenue, got into an altercation and were assaulted, the investigations have decided the staff had put themselves in that position by trying to collect revenue and so were held partly responsible for their injuries so staff decided the best idea was not to put yourself in a possible position of danger, You can decide who is at fault for the situation!

 

As for the decline in ticket checks Northern decided the revenue protection teams werent worth the money as most people bought tickets so got rid of most of them, and those that didnt werent worth the effort or leaving it up to the Guards to deal with them, see the above paragraph for what happened next!

Edited October 18, 2019 by royaloak

[Wheatley]

6 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

We've still got 323s running in the pre-Arriva livery with the old sticky back plastic branding pulled 

The 323s were going off lease so were not included in the refurb programme, apparently thats changed. The unbranded 150s were photographed in July and August so unlikely to be anything to do with Shapps' announcement, and the 170s refurbed at that time and since are branded. I suspect that's more to do with whoever is doing the ex-GWR 150s than anything else. 

[newbryford]

9 hours ago, 4630 said:

 

That's interesting.

 

I'd photographed 150150 at Brighouse on 4th July 2019 sans Northern branding.  I didn't think anything of it other than it was an unusual livery oddity and assumed that after the refurb it had been returned to Newton Heath TMD for the branding to be applied locally there, but that the unit had been pressed into service before it could be done.  The unit was working 1J23, 16.57 Leeds to Southport.

   

 

I also caught 150128 without branding at Brighouse on 23rd August 2019.  This time the unit was working 5Z51, 07.35 Doncaster West Yard to Newton Heath TMD.  I presume that the unit was returning after refurbishment.

 

 

Pretty sure that 150150 and 150128 are still sans branding - 3 and 2 months on respectively.

 

I realise that it's "only" a few stickers, but is it an indication that Arriva knew what was coming back then?

[newbryford]

1 hour ago, royaloak said:

Case history has led to this situation where staff were out doing revenue, got into an altercation and were assaulted, the investigations have decided the staff had put themselves in that position by trying to collect revenue and so were held partly responsible for their injuries so staff decided the best idea was not to put yourself in a possible position of danger, You can decide who is at fault for the situation!

 

As for the decline in ticket checks Northern decided the revenue protection teams werent worth the money as most people bought tickets so got rid of most of them, and those that didnt werent worth the effort or leaving it up to the Guards to deal with them, see the above paragraph for what happened next!

 

SIgn of the times I'm afraid to say.