Cheshire Lines Committee Layout

[1165Valour]

To go along with my thread asking what a layout depicting the LNWR North Wales line would need, I'd like to ask what a layout depicting the CLC Liverpool to Manchester line needs. What GCR, GNR, and Midland engines ran this line in pre-Grouping days? What traffic was most common on this line?

Edited October 17, 2019 by GWRSwindon

[James Harrison]

The GCR provided the motive power for timetabled service trains.  Usually this took the form of older Sacre and Pollitt designs; class 13 4-2-2s were used until 1927, also GCR class 2s, 2As, 11s and 11As; basically be prepared to have to kit or scratchbuild. 

[Poggy1165]

The Midland provided locos for its own trains. These were chiefly expresses between Liverpool, Southport and either London, Derby or Chinley. (You would need to check your year.) Midland "Spinner" single wheelers were certainly used. I would not be surprised if there were also Midland goods trains. In fact, I'd be surprised if there weren't as the MR had its own goods facilities in Liverpool.

 

I am less clear about the GN. If there were GN trains they would have been headed by GN locos, but I'm not sure they operated west of Manchester.

 

The GC pretty much used all its knackered old engines on the CLC, particularly on goods trains. A J9 or J10 would be the last word in modernity. J12s would be quite normal, many were at Trafford Park. Pollitt singles were used on Manchester-Liverpool expresses, and you would also get D5, D6, D7 and D9, the latter (D9) being on the principal trains only. Much older engines were put on locals including sundry Sacre relics. You might also reasonably use tank engines of F1, F2 and C13, An awful lot of scratch building is going to be required. But that's nothing compared to the CLC coaching stock. 

[Compound2632]

As @Poggy1165 says, the MS&L / GC provided the motive power for CLC services as well as through trains to its own system, with the Midland doing likewise for trains to its system. The Midland shared some sheds with the GC, notably Trafford Park and Liverpool Brunswick. Both sheds had an allocation of goods engines, so presumably the Midland was working its own goods trains. Although it did not have its own engines, the CLC had its own carriages for "internal" services and also a fleet of goods wagons. These both generally followed MS&L / GC practice, though both the GN and Midland built some goods stock to their own designs for the CLC - more GN than Mid, I think. But as far as I can see, that's the limit of the GN's physical presence. It's interest in the CLC dated back to the days when the GN and MS&L cooperated to provide a Kings Cross - Manchester / Liverpool service via Retford, that was competitive with the Midland and even the LNW out of Euston.

 

A layout with Pollitt and Johnson singles racing by would be a fine sight!

[Michael Edge]

The Midland had their own loco shed at Brunswick, they didn't share the CLC one. As far as GC locos were concerned all the old crocks were pensioned off on the Manchester - Liverpool route. 

[runs as required]

 

I was interested to read that the Midland had its own  Brunswick shed, separate shed from the rest of its CLC partners. This is the late C19 2500 map from NLoS (before the Grafton St houses I lived in were built in the early 1900s overlooking Herculaneum Dock - featured in TV 'Bread' too.).

I assume it must be the 3 road shed behind Harrington Dock. Would they be MR passenger locos only? So mainly double ender tanks, except for tender locos they could more easily turn outside Central station rather than cross into the dirty mineral engine side.

[Compound2632]

"A three road wooden building of MS&LR origin, the shed opened about 1872 ... and Midland engines began making use of it from 1873 ... The shed rapidly became overcrowded and the MSL constructed a new brick shed for its own use on the opposite side of the line, bequeathing the original building to the Midland."

C. Hawkins & G. Reeve, LMS Engine Sheds Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1981).

 

They go on to say that when the shed closed in 1929, the remaining allocation of LMS engines made use of a road in the LNER shed, until 1945. So, shared shed in the beginning and at the end. They explain that Brunswick mostly dealt with passenger engines, goods engines living out at Walton, another CLC shed. 

 

The allocation in 1920 was:

nine 4-4-0s - 329-332, 334-338

three 4-2-2s - 616, 620, 623

three 0-4-0Ts - 1503/9/10

six 0-6-0Ts - 1723, 1730-2/4/6

twenty-two 0-6-0s, on their way to becoming 3Fs.

 

[Michael Edge]

The track of the MR shed and its coaling stage remained into the late 1960s/70s - still there on my layout (Herculaneum Dock)

[Steamport Southport]

Here's my local disused station. Now replaced with a new station.

 

Notice the diverse locomotives. And the fact that in 1895 I could have got a train to Kings Cross at 5.48am!

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/h/halewood/index.shtml

 

 

 

Jason

Edited October 17, 2019 by Steamport Southport

[Compound2632]

Nice pair of singles - Pollitt and Johnson - in that set of photos.

[runs as required]

Surprising those pre-grouping pics of Halewood were all tender locos,

The fast 45 min Central to Central trains were always boring suburban stock with tanks in the years I knew the service (like the disappointing end of the GW to Birkenhead Woodside on the Wirral railway, from their terminal bay platform at Chester General.)

I wonder whether the MS&L and MR ran tender expresses from Liverpool via Tiviot Dale bypassing Manchester Central to further destinations (must check my Bradshaw).

The only fun ride for me from Central was the 1.15pm North Country Continental through  to Harwich with a Gresley buffet reversing at Mcr Central .

dh

[Compound2632]

As far as the Midland was concerned, the principal trains were the Liverpool portions of London expresses, combined with the Manchester portions at Marple, or later, Chinley. The Midland was never directly in the Liverpool-Manchester business; it would have been in competition with its stake in the CLC. There was a nasty rear-end collision in the tunnel between Liverpool Central and St James in 1913. A Midland train for Stockport ran into the rear of a CLC express for Manchester, that had been brought to a stand through the communication cord being pulled. The CLC train was drawn by Great Central 4-4-0 No. 1016 (what class? I don't have a GCR list) and consisted of five CLC carriages, brake third / lav compo / lav compo / third / brake third - this last being a 12-wheeler - a Great Eastern corridor brake composite for Harwich, and a Great Central brake third and lav compo for Grimsby, all bogie stock. The first booked stop for both trains was Warrington, with their timetabled departure times from Liverpool just 5 minutes apart. Lt. Col. Druitt's report here.

[1165Valour]

20 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

As far as the Midland was concerned, the principal trains were the Liverpool portions of London expresses, combined with the Manchester portions at Marple, or later, Chinley. The Midland was never directly in the Liverpool-Manchester business; it would have been in competition with its stake in the CLC. There was a nasty rear-end collision in the tunnel between Liverpool Central and St James in 1913. A Midland train for Stockport ran into the rear of a CLC express for Manchester, that had been brought to a stand through the communication cord being pulled. The CLC train was drawn by Great Central 4-4-0 No. 1016 (what class? I don't have a GCR list) and consisted of five CLC carriages, brake third / lav compo / lav compo / third / brake third - this last being a 12-wheeler - a Great Eastern corridor brake composite for Harwich, and a Great Central brake third and lav compo for Grimsby, all bogie stock. The first booked stop for both trains was Warrington, with their timetabled departure times from Liverpool just 5 minutes apart. Lt. Col. Druitt's report here.

No. 1016 was a Robinson 11B (LNER D9).

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, GWRSwindon said:

No. 1016 was a Robinson 11B (LNER D9).

 

Not the most clapped-out of 4-4-0s, nor the most modern. I read that there was a programme of rebuilding with larger boilers starting in 1913, though I suppose it hadn't reached No. 1016 by the time of the accident. (LNER Encylopedia).

 

The Midland engine, No. 352, was a member of Johnson's 1562 Class of 1882/3. It had been rebuilt with an H boiler in 1907 but was withdrawn in 1926 without further rebuilding. Along with its nine brethren of the same Derby-built batch, it spent its entire life allocated to Manchester. 

Edited October 19, 2019 by Compound2632

[1165Valour]

Perhaps a layout depicting the Central-Central line could also have the LNWR Manchester Exchange-Liverpool Lime Street line. The two run almost parallel for most of their lengths, though you may have to accept compressing the distance between the two to show both.

 

By the way, what are some good books on the ClC? So far, I've found:

An Illustrated History of the Cheshire Lines Committee (Paul Bolger)

The Cheshire Lines Committee: Then and Now (Nigel Dyckhoff)

Portrait of the Cheshire Lines Commitee (Nigel Dyckhoff)

[Compound2632]

5 hours ago, GWRSwindon said:

 

Portrait of the Cheshire Lines Committee (Nigel Dyckhoff)

 

I find myself expecting this to be an album of photographs of bearded Victorian worthies.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Compound2632

[1165Valour]

10 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I find myself expecting this to be an album of photographs of bearded Victorian worthies.

I'd probably still buy it. In any case, one can hardly outdo the Marquess of Salisbury, truly a Victorian worthy with one of the finest beards in the Empire!

 

Something I rather miss about modelling the UK compared to my native US is the interchange. In most towns where two railroads met, there would be an interchange (I believe the UK term is exchange siding) to transfer cars between the two. It allows you to add a bit of color to a layout that would otherwise be solely focused on one company, as well as operating interest. 

[1165Valour]

Are Bob Pixton's books on the Liverpool & Manchester lines worth purchasing? They're getting hard to come by, so I wanted to be sure.

[iak]

However one looks at this, a pre group CLC layout will be difficult to populate with stock except freight wise.

Scratch building is pretty much your only option for coaching stock.

There are locomotives to build in Judith Edges N5 and if you are lucky, you might turn up an auld white whitemetal beast.

I was lucky enough to have operated Andy Gibbs' Whetstone on a couple of occasions and that was a pure GC London extension layout. It took a good deal of scratch building and butchery produced the stock from various sources frae memory. I also was part of the Plemsworth team, a layout which was CLC post grouping, circa 1929. Locomotives used were mainly ex GC but again, limited by what was available.  No genuine CLC coaching stock was ever built as none of us were coach builders.

Bill Bedford did do some CLC stock, as built by the GNR pre WW1. Those etched now seem unavailable. 

 

[Compound2632]

There is of course a noble and honorable tradition of adapting the Triang clerestories for Great Central passenger carriages - see MRJ No. 272.

[PenrithBeacon]

1 hour ago, iak said:

However one looks at this, a pre group CLC layout will be difficult to populate with stock except freight wise.

Scratch building is pretty much your only option for coaching stock.

There are locomotives to build in Judith Edges N5 and if you are lucky, you might turn up an auld white whitemetal beast.

I was lucky enough to have operated Andy Gibbs' Whetstone on a couple of occasions and that was a pure GC London extension layout. It took a good deal of scratch building and butchery produced the stock from various sources frae memory. I also was part of the Plemsworth team, a layout which was CLC post grouping, circa 1929. Locomotives used were mainly ex GC but again, limited by what was available.  No genuine CLC coaching stock was ever built as none of us were coach builders.

Bill Bedford did do some CLC stock, as built by the GNR pre WW1. Those etched now seem unavailable. 

 

Might be worthwhile asking Bill if he could do a re-run. I got a whitemetal kit of a J10 and a C13 off eBay a few years ago, they do still turn up

[1165Valour]

From what I've read the CLC was a rather busy line for much of its existence; what kinds of traffic can be included on a layout depicting it? I expect coal traffic from the GCR Wigan line, among other things.

[PenrithBeacon]

9 minutes ago, GWRSwindon said:

From what I've read the CLC was a rather busy line for much of its existence; what kinds of traffic can be included on a layout depicting it? I expect coal traffic from the GCR Wigan line, among other things.

As it was set in a very heavily industrialised area you can pretty well take your pick, but on Saturday afternoons it tended to be given over to holiday excursions.

[Poggy1165]

Pretty much any goods traffic you can imagine, but bear in mind the CLC had its own fleet of wagons and in pre-group days these would predominate. Most (if not all) CLC wagons were GC/GN/Midland types - but often with subtle variations, particularly around brake gear. There are some photos in Tatlow's LNER Wagon book (vol one) and the HMRS has some others in its collection that are available for purchase. But ware post grouping stuff! (Because the CLC kept on buying new wagons through the 1920s, and brake vans to 47.)

 

The Midland and GC both worked their own goods trains over sections of the CLC. The Wigan and St Helens (GC) branches produced a very considerable amount of traffic, the most important element of which was coal (mainly in PO wagons). But note that the Wigan coalfield (and to a large extent the one around St Helens) were apt to use antediluvian wagons and many of these can only (correctly) be produced by scratch-building. Moreover, some of the collieries are a tad obscure. Photos of Wigan Junction Colliery wagons (for example) are few and far between, although they do exist.

 

St Helens (GC) also produced a useful amount of glass traffic, for which special (GC) wagons were provided.

 

OTOH there was at one time a CLC block train of coal from Ashton-in-Makerfield (GC) to Northwich. (Not sure what route it took, but at a guess via Manchester, Fairfield, Woodley and Altrincham). It would have a GC loco but a CLC brake.

[Compound2632]

The CLC's wagon fleet wasn't very large relative to its mileage, particularly given the industrialised areas it served - just over 4,000 vehicles in 1930 according to Tatlow. I suspect that reflects the predominance of the owning companies' stock for goods working onto and off the system. However, there were a couple of CLC wagons in a Midland Birmingham - Manchester (Ancoats) train that came to grief at Whitacre in 1903. I presume they were working back empty. 

 

Passenger traffic will depend on the route modelled. On the main Liverpool-Manchester line, there were the Liverpool portions of both Midland and Great Central London expresses - worked by those Johnson and Pollitt singles - the Midland trains avoiding Manchester and combining with the Manchester portions at Marple or later, Chinley. (I think I'm repeating myself). There were also Midland workings to Southport. Off the main lines, and indeed for the fast Liverpool-Manchester trains as well as stoppers, CLC carriage stock worked by GC engines.

 

The Midland presence in Lancashire was rather complex, despite the company's limited route mileage in the county. As well as the London-facing services over the CLC, there were Scotland-facing services, both passenger and goods, from Liverpool and Manchester over the L&Y to Hellifield.