126 DMUs on Western Region

[MJI]

I found a picture a few days ago.

 

Any information which vehicles this were?

 

All I know is first batch

 

Thanks

 

Martin

[Flood]

Class 126?

 

I thought that they were built for the Glasgow - Ayrshire/Stranraer services (as per Railcar https://www.railcar.co.uk/type/class-126/). Please tell me if I am wrong.

 

Edit: Just looked in A Pictorial Record of British Raiways Diesel Multiple Units and it states that there were

DMBSL (Leading) W79091 - 94

DMBSL (intermediate) W79083 - 90

TFKRB W79440/1

TFK W79470-3

See Railcar https://www.railcar.co.uk/type/swindon-79xxx/

 

Built as 2 x splitable (is that a word?) 9 car formations on the Western Region and an additional 6 x 6 car for the Scottish Region E&G line, they were all allocated to the Scottish Region by the early 1960s. Strictly speaking they were not Class 126 but the later survivors had their multiple working changed to be compatible with the later 50xxx and 51xxx Class 126 cars.

Edited October 18, 2019 by Flood

[scottystitch]

This site here should help.

 

The 79xxx were 3-car sets, operated in 6-car sets for the Edinburgh-Glasgow Express route, but also used for a short time on the WR from Birmingham on limited routes.

 

https://www.railcar.co.uk/type/swindon-79xxx/

 

The 126 were similar, deployed on the Glasgow-Ayr route and worked in either 3- or 6-car formations.

 

https://www.railcar.co.uk/type/class-126/

Edited October 18, 2019 by scottystitch

[Dunsignalling]

The units on the Western Region were classes 123 and 124, formerly "Swindon, Inter-City" IIRC. They started off as 4-car sets with half including a Buffet or Restaurant car which was later removed. When new I remember them coming down west on services from Cardiff and/or Birmingham. I think they also worked the Portsmouth-Cardiff route for a while.

 

Later, any vehicles that weren't added to the Trans-Pennine fleet were scrapped in the 1980s, I think.

 

John

 

Edited to remove confusion on my part. Use of what later became Class 126 on the WR was "before my time"...

Edited October 19, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[The Johnster]

When new in 1956, these 79xxx 'Inter City' units were used on the WR and there is a photo around somewhere of a 6-car train in ex-works condition on the down main at Plymouth Woods to the west of Cardiff, probably on a Birmingham-Swansea working.  They worked Birmingham Snow Hill-Cardiff via Hereford or Stratford Upon Avon, and I believe Birmingham-Bristol via SFN as well.  They were rapidly replaced by new Class 120 'Cross Country' sets in 1957, and some of the later produced 79xxx probably went straight to Scotland to be joined by their early classmates.  The Swindon Cross Countries were supplemented by Gloucester RCW Class119 sets from 1959.  The last build of 120s had 4-character headcode panels let in below the cab windows, and were allocated to West Country depots, hence they were a rare, though by no means unknown, sight upline of Bristol.  AFAiK the Glasgow-Ayr 126 sets went straight from Swindon to Scotland and never worked on the WR.

 

The 79xxx were originally distinguishable from the 120s at the outer cab ends by having a 2-character headcode panel below the cab windows and no destination blind panel.  The earlier 120s had 3 marker lights and a fourth atop the cab above the destination blind panel.

 

The mk1 derived Class 123 Swindon Inter City 4 car units, the ones with wrap around windows similar to the Clacton 25kv electrics but not with the Commonwealth bogies, were introduced in 1962, with gangways between sets enabling 8 or 12 car trains with one Buffet; these had more powerful engines and were geared for 75mph running.  These and a new mk1 chocolate and cream 'Bristolian' set featured the first B4 100mph bogies, and were AFAIK the only use of these bogies for dmus in the mainland UK though some Mk2 rebuilds later operated in dmu form in Ulster.  They worked Cardiff to Derby or Portsmouth, probably others but those are what I remember.  Mechanically similar were the Swindon built Class 125 Trans-Pennine six car sets for Liverpool-Hull services, but these had more powered vehicles in the set to cope with the Pennine banks and Miles Platting.  I think but cannot confirm that these two types were the first dmu sets introduced in the lined dark green livery, though of course it was applied new to the later builds of earlier introduced types.

 

All the above mentioned dmus had Buffet facilities, and on the 126 and 123 gangways were provided for access to them between sets, but the 126 had full width cabs similar to the 120 layout at the 'outer' ends of the 'splittable' 6-car train, formed of 2x 3-car sets with the gangwayed flat ended DMS facing 'inwards'.  These were not the most attractively styled design of the period and may have provoked sufficient negative comment to bring the proposed Swindon 4 car Inter City and the Trans Pennines to the attention of the design panel, along with the Clactons.  If so, the Southern Region never got the message...

Edited October 18, 2019 by The Johnster

[Clive Mortimore]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The mk1 derived Class 123 Swindon Inter City 4 car units, the ones with wrap around windows similar to the Clacton 25kv electrics but not with the Commonwealth bogies, were introduced in 1962, with gangways between sets enabling 8 or 12 car trains with one Buffet; these had more powerful engines and were geared for 75mph running.  These and a new mk1 chocolate and cream 'Bristolian' set featured the first B4 100mph bogies, and were AFAIK the only use of these bogies for dmus in the mainland UK though some Mk2 rebuilds later operated in dmu form in Ulster.  They worked Cardiff to Derby or Portsmouth, probably others but those are what I remember.  Mechanically similar were the Swindon built Class 125 Trans-Pennine six car sets for Liverpool-Hull services, but these had more powered vehicles in the set to cope with the Pennine banks and Miles Platting.  I think but cannot confirm that these two types were the first dmu sets introduced in the lined dark green livery, though of course it was applied new to the later builds of earlier introduced types.

 

The Swindon 4 car intercity sets were not Mk1 derived, they like all Swindon DMUs had a Swindon profile that later evolved into the Mk2 coach. Like the Mk2 they were of integral design with no chassis. The windows were not so deep, but were spaced in similar positions as found on Mk1 coaches. I one my books there is a photo of a set of center cars from a Swindon unit being used as hauled coaches and they do look different. My own models on these units, Transpennine and Glasgow to Edinburgh are wrong because I was lazy and used Mk1 coaches.  The cabs are nothing like a Clacton and Walton unit, the AM9s curve in two different planes, if it wasn't for the gangway connector the end would be hemi-spherical. The Swindon's only the fronts curve in the plan view.

 

Back to the Swindon 3 or 6 car units, I followed Martyn's (Signaler 69) method of using Trix coaches for the closer seating bays and the slightly sallower windows as he had done with his Class 126.

 

Clacton on the left and Swindon on the right I think it is easier to see the shape differences with both under construction.

 

A Glasgow -Edinburgh DMS and a Transpennine DMC, see how the Trix windows look better for a Swindon built unit. Mainline coaches are another possibility for conversion.

 

 

[MJI]

Thanks all

 

I know about 123s (the B4 ones),.

 

I found a picture of the "similar to 126 sets" on the line now the GWR.

 

Since I am planning a small layout of around 1960 and that general area to supplement my under contruction blue era, it took my interest.

 

I actually have a 119 and just started collecting info for a 120.

 

May ask Worsely for sides (120 and pre 126), but they may get the windows wrong, Brian did suggest also original Mainline mark 1s.

 

Or would it be worth working out my own etches?

[MidlandRed]

On 18 October 2019 at 19:20, The Johnster said:

The last build of 120s had 4-character headcode panels let in below the cab windows, and were allocated to West Country depots, hence they were a rare, though by no means unknown, sight upline of Bristol.  

 

A minor point slightly off topic - the last batch of class 120 for the WR (W515xx series - as mentioned, easily recognisable by four character headcode panels under the windscreens) appeared at Birmingham Snow Hill regularly in the early 60s (same era as Western class operated Paddington to Birmingham/Chester expresses) - some were allocated to Tyseley until about 1962 - after which they seemed to be a Laira allocated batch and found in Devon/Cornwall generally. There are also Mike Mensing colour photos of them on Worcester - Bromyard and Stratford on Avon to Worcester/Ledbury trains in 1961-2 in The Heydey of the DMU (neither set with speed whiskers nor syp)! 

 

The same book has photos of W790xx sets on BSH-Gloucester-Newport-Cardiff (complete with green background roof boards) and a BSH to Carmarthen service. Both have speed whiskers - the leading full width cab on the first (6 car) has the single letter headcode C whilst the Carmarthen has the gangwayed end leading with single character headcodes A under each cab window. 

Edited October 19, 2019 by MidlandRed

[chrisf]

Beware of unskilled caption writers.  There are some colour albums whose compilers do not know the difference between a 120 and a 126.

 

Chris

[caradoc]

13 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

The units on the Western Region were classes 123 and 124, formerly "Swindon, Inter-City" IIRC. They started off as 4-car sets with half including a Buffet or Restaurant car which was later removed. When new I remember them coming down west on services from Cardiff and/or Birmingham. I think they also worked the Portsmouth-Cardiff route for a while.

 

Any that weren't altered to be compatible with the ScR units were scrapped in the 1980s, I think.

 

John

 

The WR 4-car Inter-City sets were Class 123; Class 124 was the Trans-Pennine sets which never worked on the WR ! In the late 1970s however Class 123 was transferred to Hull and mixed with Class 124.

 

[Dunsignalling]

10 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

The WR 4-car Inter-City sets were Class 123; Class 124 was the Trans-Pennine sets which never worked on the WR ! In the late 1970s however Class 123 was transferred to Hull and mixed with Class 124.

 

Post amended.

 

I rather liked the 123s, and would have preferred them to the unreliable Warships on the Waterloo-Exeter route, but there weren't enough of them for that.

 

John

Edited October 19, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[scottystitch]

8 hours ago, MJI said:

Thanks all

 

I know about 123s (the B4 ones),.

 

I found a picture of the "similar to 126 sets" on the line now the GWR.

 

Since I am planning a small layout of around 1960 and that general area to supplement my under contruction blue era, it took my interest.

 

I actually have a 119 and just started collecting info for a 120.

 

May ask Worsely for sides (120 and pre 126), but they may get the windows wrong, Brian did suggest also original Mainline mark 1s.

 

Or would it be worth working out my own etches?

Worsley do the 79xxx (the ones you describe as pre-126) in 2mm/Ngauge, albeit not in stock at the last count, so Alan may be agreeable to producing in 4mm. I plan on using the chassis from Dapol's N gauge 120/121 as it's a similar drive unit.

[MidlandRed]

5 hours ago, chrisf said:

Beware of unskilled caption writers.  There are some colour albums whose compilers do not know the difference between a 120 and a 126.

 

Chris

 

Indeed, good advice. However The Heyday of the DMU, as well as having a lot of shots from the era when few people photographed DMUs, appears to have well pretty well informed and extensive captions. I was surprised about the W515xx on the Bromyard branch as I've only ever heard of GRCW single units on it, but as the photo's at Suckley, and it has Worcester Shrub Hill in the blind, I think it's likely to be correct. They refer to the W790xx as Swindon Inter City units (the 120s being Swindon Cross Country units). The pictures of those are at Birmingham Snow Hill and Widney Manor respectively (incidentally, I'm not sure whether it's the lighting but the latter shot shows the early DMU green to very good effect).

 

Does anyone know if all the original WR Inter City units carried the green carriage headboards, Birmingham Gloucester Newport Cardiff? 

[MJI]

11 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

 

A minor point slightly off topic - the last batch of class 120 for the WR (W515xx series) appeared at Birmingham Snow Hill regularly in the early 60s (same era as Western class operated Paddington to Birmingham/Chester expresses) - some were allocated to Tyseley until about 1962 - after which they seemed to be a Laira allocated batch and found in Devon/Cornwall generally. There are also Mike Mensing colour photos of them on Worcester - Bromyard and Stratford on Avon to Worcester/Ledbury trains in 1961-2 in Heydey of the DMU (neither set with speed whiskers or syp)! 

 

The same book has photos of W790xx sets on BSH-Gloucester-Newport-Cardiff (complete with green background roof boards) and a BSH to Carmarthen service. Both have speed whiskers - the leading full width cab on the first (6 car) has the single letter headcode C whilst the Carmarthen has the gangwayed end leading with single character headcodes A under each cab window. 

 

Interesting.

 

7 hours ago, chrisf said:

Beware of unskilled caption writers.  There are some colour albums whose compilers do not know the difference between a 120 and a 126.

 

Chris

 

My DMU recognition is not bad at all.

 

1 hour ago, MidlandRed said:

 

Indeed, good advice. However The Heyday of the DMU, as well as having a lot of shots from the era when few people photographed DMUs, appears to have well pretty well informed and extensive captions. I was surprised about the W515xx on the Bromyard branch as I've only ever heard of GRCW single units on it, but as the photo's at Suckley, and it has Worcester Shrub Hill in the blind, I think it's likely to be correct. They refer to the W790xx as Swindon Inter City units (the 120s being Swindon Cross Country units). The pictures of those are at Birmingham Snow Hill and Widney Manor respectively (incidentally, I'm not sure whether it's the lighting but the latter shot shows the early DMU green to very good effect).

 

Does anyone know if all the original WR Inter City units carried the green carriage headboards, Birmingham Gloucester Newport Cardiff? 

 

Seen pictures of GWR 33 38 and GRCW single cars on that branch

[keefer]

As has been mentioned briefly, the 79xxx driving cars only had a single, central stencil on the end DMs (one under each cab window on the intermediate DMs) - these initially showed only A,B,or C (later 1,2 or 3) for train classification. There were no other market lights or even destination blinds which does seem a bit odd considering most DMUs and EMUs had them.

These units were basically Blue Square but for some reason were not given a through air control pipe (each car had its own supply) - hence they were incompatible.

As has been started already the 79xxx were modified so they could work with the cl. 126, which were classed as White Circle (still with no air pipe).

IIRC a couple of early vehicles went to France for extensive testing of the integral body structure, as part of the development which eventually led to the mk2 coach

[The Stationmaster]

7 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Post amended.

 

I rather liked the 123s, and would have preferred them to the unreliable Warships on the Waterloo-Exeter route, but there weren't enough of them for that.

 

John

I think you were better off with the 'Warships' - at least their engines didn't fall off (even tho' they failed to work at times).  The 123s were very nice to ride on - being basically a Mk1 coach but on better bogies - but they remained something of a fitter's nightmare for most of their working lives.  And they had a habit of engines dropping out (and occasionally dropping off - although that was an early shortcoming) in rather inconvenient places, just the sort of thing you did not want on Honiton Incline

[MidlandRed]

In comparison the original 1956 Inter City units were said to give a poor ride and were replaced on the Glasgow to Edinburgh service at the start of the 70s by class 27 operated push/pull trains. The Inter City units were withdrawn with the exception of some intermediate non-driving cars which were incorporated into the Ayr class 126 units. 

 

The class 123 Inter City Units were London based from the later 60s and as well as running services like through Paddington to Henley trains are pictured on such diverse duties as direct Paddington to Minehead and Crewe to Cardiff (mid 70s) (with L prefix set numbers). 

[keefer]

By the late '60s there was a desire to upgrade the E-G service. This was, in a way the ScR's premier line, with an intensive timetable and a lot of business & legal passengers between the two cities. The advent of express coaches on the new M8 motorway brought the prospect of serious competition to the trains, so BR was keen to find something better. Various l/h push-pull solutions were looked at, resulting in pairs of cl. 27s as there weren't any higher-powered locos available. They did get fairly new mk2 stock (which received air disc-brakes) which the LMR were loathe to give up until they were promised new mk2c stock.

More info here: http://6lda28.com/shove.html

[turbos]

18 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

In comparison the original 1956 Inter City units were said to give a poor ride and were replaced on the Glasgow to Edinburgh service at the start of the 70s by class 27 operated push/pull trains. The Inter City units were withdrawn with the exception of some intermediate non-driving cars which were incorporated into the Ayr class 126 units. 

 

The class 123 Inter City Units were London based from the later 60s and as well as running services like through Paddington to Henley trains are pictured on such diverse duties as direct Paddington to Minehead and Crewe to Cardiff (mid 70s) (with L prefix set numbers). 

There were two intermediate driving cars transferred in to the Class 126 fleet iDMBS 79088 transferred to Ayr Nov 71 and iDMS 79168 reinstated at Ayr Sep 73. The 79xxx iDMS were almost identical to the Class 125 iDMS where as the 79xxx was not like any Class 126 vehicle.

The 79xxx leading DMBS did not have multiple working jumpers at the driving end which ruled them out of further use in Ayrshire.

Brian.

[keefer]

2 hours ago, turbos said:

 

The 79xxx leading DMBS did not have multiple working jumpers at the driving end which ruled them out of further use in Ayrshire.

Brian.

Forgot all about the lack of jumpers on the end DM, another odd feature of these units.

There were also instructions in the General Appendix regarding coupling to these units in an emergency - they were not lightweight units but they were classed as having lightweight buffing gear so restrictions applied.

I'll see if I can get them scanned.

[russ p]

Did the two driving vehicles transferred to class126 have the driving controls changed as I believe the 79xxx  ones had controls similar to yellow diamond whereas the 126s had controls similar to blue square 

[MidlandRed]

3 hours ago, turbos said:

There were two intermediate driving cars transferred in to the Class 126 fleet iDMBS 79088 transferred to Ayr Nov 71 and iDMS 79168 reinstated at Ayr Sep 73. The 79xxx iDMS were almost identical to the Class 125 iDMS where as the 79xxx was not like any Class 126 vehicle.

The 79xxx leading DMBS did not have multiple working jumpers at the driving end which ruled them out of further use in Ayrshire.

Brian.

 

Thanks - I didn't realise these were transferred as well - I saw some of the centre trailers in use within class 126 sets. It's interesting that in the late 70s 79088 and 79168 are shown on railcar.co.uk as the outer vehicles of a three car set with another SC79xxx as the centre car. 

Edited October 20, 2019 by MidlandRed

[robertcwp]

Some images of the early 79XXX series on the WR:

 

Sc79098_Paddington by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

Swindon-IC_Birmingham-Swansea_nrCardiff by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

Swindon-Inter-City_WR by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

WR_Inter-City-Buffet-Unit by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

W79089 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[keefer]

Think that's the only time I've seen speed whiskers on a gangway cover!

Excellent pics Robert.

[russ p]

31 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

Some images of the early 79XXX series on the WR:

 

Sc79098_Paddington by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

Swindon-IC_Birmingham-Swansea_nrCardiff by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

Swindon-Inter-City_WR by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

WR_Inter-City-Buffet-Unit by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

W79089 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

 

Wonder if the lead intermediate driving vehicle in the last picture is one of two in the same set or it wouldn't be able to multi up with the rear 3 car set