88D Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 I’m thinking of converting the Bachmann 64xx to a 54xx. Other than wheel, splasher and brake spacing, are there any other differences to consider? Cheers, Dai 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 Lower your buffers (from the top of the buffer beam to the bottom). 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted October 19, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 19, 2019 As the new wheels will raise the axles by about a mm (5'2" minus 4'7" = 5", divide by 2 as the height difference is radius and not diameter = 2.5", ball park 1mm), you'll need to devise a means of moving the axle channels upward in the chassis block by the same amount to restore the original, correct, ride height. If I were doing it, which I'm not, I'd be looking at taking metal out from the chassis block to about 2mm and inserting a shim or tube to carry the axle at the correct height. I believe there was some comment at the time the Bachmann 64xx was introduced that the splashers looked a bit large, so you might 'get away with' them. AFAIK the extra height did not make any difference to the chimney or the cab roof (and it's interface with the side sheets), but it might be as well to check this detail Is there a chassis kit available? or can a 2251 chassis be modified? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 No need for moving the axles up in the chassis. The 54xx was a 64xx raised by the difference of the respective wheel radii*. Lowering the buffers by about 1mm restores the correct buffer height. * 64xx cab 11'8.5" high, 54xx cab 11'11.75" high. 64xx chimney 12'3" high, 54xx chimney 12'6,25" high. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
88D Posted October 19, 2019 Author Share Posted October 19, 2019 Thanks for your input, chaps. Johnster, I am hoping I’ll get away with the splashers. When I get round to it, I shall let everybody know the outcome. Be warned though, I have a few other projects before it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 On 19/10/2019 at 16:24, The Johnster said: As the new wheels will raise the axles by about a mm (5'2" minus 4'7" = 5", divide by 2 as the height difference is radius and not diameter = 2.5", ball park 1mm), you'll need to devise a means of moving the axle channels upward in the chassis block by the same amount to restore the original, correct, ride height. If I were doing it, which I'm not, I'd be looking at taking metal out from the chassis block to about 2mm and inserting a shim or tube to carry the axle at the correct height. I believe there was some comment at the time the Bachmann 64xx was introduced that the splashers looked a bit large, so you might 'get away with' them. AFAIK the extra height did not make any difference to the chimney or the cab roof (and it's interface with the side sheets), but it might be as well to check this detail Is there a chassis kit available? or can a 2251 chassis be modified? The wheel size might cause issues, The 2251 chassis is the 57XX one with 7'3 + 8'3" spacing rather than the 45/64/74/16XX/2021 7'4 + 7'4" , The Bachmann 2251 wheels always look too small too me. Hornby 14XX might be better. Oxford Dean Goods better still. The 54XX as Miss Prism said is a 64XX with smaller wheels and the buffers moved to the bottom of the bufferbeam, (actually its the other way round 54XX came first) The 54XX running plate is the same height as the 14XX and prototype 2251 so 3" or so higher than a 64/74/94 or 57XX . Its the buffer centres which are a constant on GW Locos, very little else is height wise. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted October 20, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2019 Good info about the height issue from Ms P and David. Just matched the 64xx and 57xx chassis against. each other and they are well off; a 2251 ain't gonna cut the mustard. A cheap alternative for donor wheels might be Airfix/Mainline/Hornby Dean goods, but there is little else on this worth recycling! This has explained why my ancient Mainline 57xx doesn't look quite right; it's sitting on a 64xx chassis. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
terry.ecmr Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 Can I ask that if the wheel diameter is less than 2mm difference and the splashers are already over sized would anyone from normal viewing distance be able to tell if the wheels had been changed or not? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hal Nail Posted October 21, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 21, 2019 13 hours ago, terry.ecmr said: Can I ask that if the wheel diameter is less than 2mm difference and the splashers are already over sized would anyone from normal viewing distance be able to tell if the wheels had been changed or not? Its well over 10% difference - a loose rule of thumb for what the eye notices - so yes, I think would show. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 On 19/10/2019 at 16:24, The Johnster said: Is there a chassis kit available? Yes. http://www.highlevelkits.co.uk/64xxpage.html Just a pity there isn't a supply of bodies. Thankfully I've already got a Sutherland 54XX kit in the pile. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted October 21, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 21, 2019 14 hours ago, terry.ecmr said: Can I ask that if the wheel diameter is less than 2mm difference and the splashers are already over sized would anyone from normal viewing distance be able to tell if the wheels had been changed or not? I'd say that if you have any other panniers or a 14xx on the layout, the 54xx wheels should be clearly visibly bigger than the other panniers' or any loco with 4'7" wheels, and visibly the same as on the 14xx or 2251. A 54xx should be taller than a 64/74xx. 33 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said: Yes. http://www.highlevelkits.co.uk/64xxpage.html Just a pity there isn't a supply of bodies. Thankfully I've already got a Sutherland 54XX kit in the pile. Jason I think the thread's hive mind has established that the difference in height at the top of the loco is prototypical, and the Bachmann body is fine for a 54xx once you've lowered the position of the buffers and drawhook. If a top feed boiler is needed, it might be better than the Sutherland; I built the Westward 64xx years ago and this could be finished as 54xx or 74xx. Might be worth looking for one as they had the larger 54xx splashers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Bear Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Could one simply fit bigger wheels to the Bachmann chassis, if they fit in the splashers? Then some styrene to deepen buffer beam and then remove buffers etc and fit new ones at lower height? That might be a project even I could accomplish (though not necessarily well!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 There is no need to deepen the buffer beam. Simply lower the existing buffer axis on the existing buffer beam. 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted October 21, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 21, 2019 Does Colin at Alan Gibson do a conversion wheel set for the Bachmann 64XX, in other words, to make an EM or P4 64XX, using the existing Bachmann chassis, but a change of wheels? If so, perhaps you could ask him if he could supply the correct axles, together with the correct size wheels for the 54XX? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted October 21, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 21, 2019 49 minutes ago, Miss Prism said: There is no need to deepen the buffer beam. Simply lower the existing buffer axis on the existing buffer beam. I think you may need to drop the drawhook by the same amount as well. The GW simply put the 54xx buffer beam on the 64/74xx 'upside down'. If you have other panniers on your layout, I think the point needs to be made with the splashers just as it does with the wheels; they need to look bigger than those on 4'7" wheel panniers. If you find that the tension lock couplers on your '64 with bigger wheels' 54 are too high, I'd suggest packing the base of the dovetail mount and re-inserting the couplers, holding them in with glue as they will not now be able to be pushed fully home. The bar should be the same height as the bar on the adjoining vehicle otherwise it will override and cause derailments or buffer locking. Lowering the buffers in easy. They can be pulled out of the 64xx buffer beam with a pair of pliers gripping the buffer housing, like pulling teeth; a little twist may help. The buffer comes out complete with the housing leaving a hole. You need to drill a new hole on the new centre and ream it out to the correct size; then you just glue the buffers with their housings into the new holes, ensuring that they are square to the buffer beam in both the vertical and horizontal planes. Pull the drawhooks out in the same way, and ream the slot out at the bottom by about 1mm or until it looks right. If the gap at the top bothers you, fill with whatever you use as filler; I use Milliput and jobs like this usually wait until I have to make up a batch, by which time I've forgotten most of 'em and they have to wait until next time... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
88D Posted October 21, 2019 Author Share Posted October 21, 2019 Gosh, I didn’t expect such a lively discussion. Many thanks. I have already converted a 64xx to EM with Markit axles and wheels. This has worked. I am happy to go with these or Alan Gibson’s for the 54xx and I shall try 5’1”” wheels if poss, pretending that the tyres are worn down a bit. This will give me a bit more leeway than the proper size wheels. If that doesn’t work, the loco will be converted to 6433 instead. If it does work, then I shall do the remedial work on the buffers. I warn you: it will be a while yet! Thanks again. Dai 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 21 hours ago, The Johnster said: I think the thread's hive mind has established that the difference in height at the top of the loco is prototypical, and the Bachmann body is fine for a 54xx once you've lowered the position of the buffers and drawhook. If a top feed boiler is needed, it might be better than the Sutherland; I built the Westward 64xx years ago and this could be finished as 54xx or 74xx. Might be worth looking for one as they had the larger 54xx splashers. It's alright, I dug it out last night and it's not a Sutherland kit, it's Stephen Poole. I was mixing it up with the Flower I got at the same time which is Sutherland. I think both of them ended up in the Nu Cast range. It has the parts to make the variants including providing for difference in the buffer height. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Bigcheeseplant Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 I have a Bachmann body on a High Level chassis and the ultrascale wheels I used seem to fit in the splashers but they are P4 so the flanges are smaller. David 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denbridge Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said: It's alright, I dug it out last night and it's not a Sutherland kit, it's Stephen Poole. I was mixing it up with the Flower I got at the same time which is Sutherland. I think both of them ended up in the Nu Cast range. It has the parts to make the variants including providing for difference in the buffer height. Jason Some years back I converted a Sutherland 2021 into the prototype 54xx. Sadly I sold it, along with many other models for personal reasons. This thread reminded me of it, so I'm ordering another 2021 kit from Dave at SE Finecast to build one again. I've also got 2 sutherland/Cotswold 54/64/74 kits stashed away along with a Stephen Poole 54 I built in my teens. That poor old thing desperately needs a restoration and detailing job, plus a new chassis. Ks mk2 motor and SP wheels. Yuck. Edited October 22, 2019 by Denbridge Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted October 22, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 22, 2019 2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said: It's alright, I dug it out last night and it's not a Sutherland kit, it's Stephen Poole. I was mixing it up with the Flower I got at the same time which is Sutherland. I think both of them ended up in the Nu Cast range. It has the parts to make the variants including providing for difference in the buffer height. Jason Win win then, Jason. The Westward had the cab variants as well (all the 54xx had the 'early' type cab with the 'lip' and radius join to the bunker side), and a fold up nickel silver chassis that was very easy to build and ran very well. The kit made up into a very good representation and my only criticism was the visibility of the worm. I painted it matt black to camouflage it, but it still drew attention to itself when the loco was running very slowly. It's chimney, dome, and safety valve cover survive on my Hornby 2721 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted October 22, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, Denbridge said: Some years back I converted a Sutherland 2021 into the prototype 54xx. Sadly I sold it, along with many other models for personal reasons. This thread reminded me of it, so I'm ordering another 2021 kit from Dave at SE Finecast to build one again. I've also got 2 sutherland/Cotswold 54/64/74 kits stashed away along with a Stephen Poole 54 I built in my teens. That poor old thing desperately needs a restoration and detailing job, plus a new chassis. Ks mk2 motor and SO wheels. Yuck. The prototype 54xx, with it's low roof cab and 5'2" wheels, was a unique loco that sadly saw a very short period of service. I'd be interested to see a photo when you've completed the kit and conversion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) 2080 with the larger wheels (and new splashers) and a No 11 boiler. The 900g tanks are retained, as are the bufferbeams in their original position. The reverser rod has been jiggled a bit. The toolbox has been shifted towards the front. Edited October 22, 2019 by Miss Prism 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denbridge Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 15 minutes ago, The Johnster said: The prototype 54xx, with it's low roof cab and 5'2" wheels, was a unique loco that sadly saw a very short period of service. I'd be interested to see a photo when you've completed the kit and conversion. From memory, it was pretty straightforward. For Mk2 I'll use spare splashers from another kit. The buffer beams require lowering, I think that was about it, structurally, though it was about 30 years ago when I built it. Will certainly post some pics. I've got wheels frames , etc in stock, so unusually for me, could be a pretty quick build. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OFFTHE RAILS Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 On 19/10/2019 at 16:24, The Johnster said: As the new wheels will raise the axles by about a mm (5'2" minus 4'7" = 5", divide by 2 as the height difference is radius and not diameter = 2.5", ball park 1mm), ............ No - 5'2" minus 4'7" = 7" (not 5) On 20/10/2019 at 20:21, DavidCBroad said: The 54XX as Miss Prism said is a 64XX with smaller wheels and the buffers moved to the bottom of the bufferbeam, (actually its the other way round 54XX came first) The 54XX running plate is the same height as the 14XX and prototype 2251 so 3" or so higher than a 64/74/94 or 57XX . Its the buffer centres which are a constant on GW Locos, very little else is height wise. No - the 64xx is a 54xx with smaller wheels........ 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted October 22, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 22, 2019 Correct of course on both counts, OFFTHE RAILS. If the starting point is a Bachmann 64xx, then a 54xx is a 64xx with larger wheels. Chronological order of prototype construction at Swindon goes; 54xx prototype, 54xx production, 64xx early variant (all up to this point with Bachmann style cab; lip on leading edge of roof and radius between cab rear and side of bunker) later variant 64xx, then 74xx (later style cab: squared off join between spectacle plate and roof and square between cab rear and bunker side). So the Bachmann cab is suitable for any production 54xx and early 64xx. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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