Train Formations - Wat-WoE

[Ian J.]

Hi all,

 

I'm sure this question has been asked before, so I'm only hoping for links to existing content rather than detailed replies. Also, I did a search using Google site search for RMweb, but didn't come up with anything conclusive.

 

Can someone point me towards resources that detail the typical formations of Waterloo - West of England trains circa 1961?

 

I've downloaded the SEMG coach sets excel file but that doesn't have information on how trains used the sets, just the make up of the sets themselves and their general area of use for a given timeframe. I've also looked up pictures of trains for the route for the era but most don't show much of the carriages, and of those that do I can't see set numbers.

 

TIA

[Roger Sunderland]

 Hi Ian

when you say "West of England" are meaning Exeter? Somewhere I have the working carriage diagrams for the Bournemouth line, which we used for our Bournemouth West layout. Any good?

[Ian J.]

Hi Roger,

 

You're answering my next question before I ask it...

 

But yes, that would be very useful, thanks

[Oldddudders]

I think what you really want is Carriage Working Notices. These specify exactly which type of vehicle is booked for each train, in which order, and if and where it is detached or attached en route. Vehicle types typically don't differentiate between builds, so an SK is an SK, be it Maunsell, Bulleid or Mk1, for example.

 

CWNs list locations alphabetically, with every working at each location shown, at least if there is station work to be done with the formation, again, attaching or detaching. Importantly, if a set is detached and berthed, it is often possible to identify what it does next. For the really diligent modeller seeking realistic operation, this might tell him how long it takes before the set he just sent off into the fiddle yard has reached its imagined terminus, been sent on its way again, and can reappear coming back!

[Ian J.]

I had a feeling CWNs would come into it. I gather getting hold of them for specific periods of time for specific locations isn't that easy though. They weren't officially published, were they? Would either the National Railway Museum or the National Archives have copies of them?

[RFS]

Have a look at this earlier thread where Robert Carroll posted a document listing the formation of the Atlantic Coast Express in 1959. It gives a typical formation of a West of England express - you'll need a lot of BCKs to match it though ...

 

 

Edited October 20, 2019 by RFS

[Oldddudders]

In my era in BR, they were widely circulated to stations etc as they were in effect the bible for daily operations. Every WTT change necessitated a reprint, and then there would be permanent supplements to be used to amend them. In my Control days it was a key document, really more so than the WTT. I'm sure there will be copies in archives, but cannot offer any concrete suggestions where, sorry. 

 

RFS has just woken me up - Robert Carroll is an RMwebber, and runs a coaching stock group online, I believe. He is a likely conduit to more information, I am sure. 

[JohnR]

Lots of Carriage Working Notices are available in the SEMG group - you need to sign up as a member, but its no more onerous than RMWeb and has lots os such prototype info. 

[Ian J.]

If that's a Yahoo group, then it's about to lose its data. Later this month they're blocking uploads, then in December they're deleting all content.

[Ian J.]

That shows how long it is since I signed in to Yahoo Groups. I was already a member there of the SEMG group, but they haven't used it since February last year, and have moved to Groups.IO at https://groups.io/g/SREmG. I will have to sort out rejoining.

[Mallard60022]

I have a 1958 CWN for the WOE (full Waterloo workings for all lines) stuff and Restaurant Car workings with actual coach ID Numbers etc. + some other guff. You'd be welcome to borrow those for now.

Phil

 

P.S. I had forgotten I had done my own train formation spread sheet for Waterloo Exeter & Exeter Waterloo Summer Timetables circa 1959/60.

Edited October 20, 2019 by Mallard60022

[Ian J.]

I found some CWN and EWN notices for 1960/62 still in the Yahoo SEMG site so I think I have what I need, but I will need to check them out before I can definitively know.

[Ian J.]

Regarding CWN, there are some abbreviations I'm not certain about. Can someone shed light on their meaning (I've highlighted the uncertain parts in bold)?

 

Waterloo F.P.

Bristol R.P.

Swindon M.P.

Clapham Yard S.R.E.

 

10 S.R./W.R. cors

3 set (T)

3 set (L)

2 set (W)

2 W.R. set (B)

4 set (S)

2 set (P)

2 set (R)

 

Also, there are a number of formation entries that contain numbers in brackets after the formation, e.g.:

10 buffet set (49)

1 P.M.V. (4)

6 set (889)

6 set (340/1)

 

TIA

[Ian J.]

Also, is there anywhere I can find out what the likely specific sets would be that were used on specific services? For example, the morning Exeter-Waterloo service, 10:32 R, SO, was formed of sets from other locations. I'm guessing there would be specific sets that would have likely been used for those locations West of Exeter?

 

[Oldddudders]

F/M/RP are portions - front, middle, rear. 

 

The SEmG spreadsheet shows some idea of the original disposition of sets. 

[chrisf]

T, L, W, B, S, P and R are particular types of set.  Example: a 2 set W is not the same as a 2 set P, though in practice those were treated interchangeably.  The numbers in brackets are specific sets, though I'm not sure about the 4.

 

Chris

[JohnR]

The appendix to the CWN will show the make up of the various sets, along with the designation - 2-set P's were sets 22-31, 168-200, and comprised a Maunsell BTK-BCK combo - most of these can be represented by Hornby Maunsells.

 

Again, there are a couple of spreadsheets available from SeMG that are helpful - one of SR coach sets and another on Hornby Maunsells.

[Mallard60022]

1 hour ago, Ian J. said:

Regarding CWN, there are some abbreviations I'm not certain about. Can someone shed light on their meaning (I've highlighted the uncertain parts in bold)?

 

Waterloo F.P.

Bristol R.P.

Swindon M.P.

Clapham Yard S.R.E.

 

10 S.R./W.R. cors

3 set (T)

3 set (L)

2 set (W)

2 W.R. set (B)

4 set (S)

2 set (P)

2 set (R)

 

Also, there are a number of formation entries that contain numbers in brackets after the formation, e.g.:

10 buffet set (49)

1 P.M.V. (4)

6 set (889)

6 set (340/1)

 

TIA

I'm not 100% but these could be the 'working' numbers for the vehicles rather than the sets as 10 Buffet set... I can't remember a Set 49 but Chris may be correct as ICBA to go and get my paperwork and 889 does sound like a Set...sorry.  Loco's on the SR (and others presumably?) were allocated to workings with numbers from sheds as you know and these were often seen on the white discs; I believe that even vans had these allocated too. Thus 1 PMV (4) would be 1 of those vans for whatever 'working No 4' was and working '4' might well have been a particular PMV...…..I think?

P

[Mallard60022]

54 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

F/M/RP are portions - front, middle, rear. 

 

The SEmG spreadsheet shows some idea of the original disposition of sets. 

Absolutely.....you may need to refer to many, many pics (or not) to get Set numbers for you trains, as which (for example) specific 3 Set L allocated from the  WOE (there were loads of course) groups, is anybody's guess! There were occasional actual Sets specified to trains and there are the lists of actual Dining vehicles for actual trains available which is brilliant, especially for me being a but OCD about that. If you can't find the Dining bits then PM me. They are on the Carroll collections I am sure.

Phil

[Ian J.]

I just downloaded a suitable CWN appendix from the SeMG group and now things feel like they will be much clearer

 

As this understanding is for my S&P project, which is partly fictional geography and timeline, then absolute accuracy to specific services as might be in photographs isn't required. However, making sure I get the 'feel' of genuine services is, so photos can and will be used to try and verify the 'idea' of a service. Which helps, as most photos I've seen in my books aren't clear enough as to all of the sets/carriages which formed any given service in a picture.

[Oldddudders]

4 minutes ago, Ian J. said:

I just downloaded a suitable CWN appendix from the SeMG group and now things feel like they will be much clearer

 

As this understanding is for my S&P project, which is partly fictional geography and timeline, then absolute accuracy to specific services as might be in photographs isn't required. However, making sure I get the 'feel' of genuine services is, so photos can and will be used to try and verify the 'idea' of a service. Which helps, as most photos I've seen in my books aren't clear enough as to all of the sets/carriages which formed any given service in a picture.

I feel your pain. I have rather a nice model of 6-set 291, painted by Larry Goddard, albeit one vehicle is bogus, no doubt painted to suit the client. My layout is set in Devon, and 291 was a Bournemouth line restaurant set, which almost certainly never even got to Exeter, never mind the Padstow line. But knowing that something is wrong and tolerating it is better than not giving a stuff.