Coach Livery Query

[Edwardian]

Yesterday I found I had the carriage shed at Didcot to myself.  Unfortunately my camera battery ran out, so no pictures, but I made a close study of a number of vehicles.

 

These appeared to date from the turn of the Century, with build-dates ranging from the 1890s to 1902.  They were painted in fully lined chocolate and cream.

 

The livery application was much as I would have expected, with one or two features that I had not expected:

 

- There was no chocolate anywhere on the upper coach sides; the beading was black

 

- The beading was edged, the lining not on the face of the beading, but on the quarter-round edging. Such a b8gger where etched sides are concerned, as these lack the beveled edge. This is how I understood the lining was applied, although I was surprised to see this lining applied in yellow, not gold

 

- The upper panels were cream, though in fact here cream was really more ivory.  I was surprised to see a tan-coloured distance line applied on the cream panels.

 

-  The drop light frames and bollections were painted in a tan-brown. The face of the frame surrounding the drop-lights was cream, but the returns were painted tan-brown, as I had thought would be the case.

 

- The door vents had faux shading painted beneath each ridge.  This was tackled in 2-3 different ways.  This I had not known of.

 

Anyway, the query arises from a door form a C10 of 1896 hanging in the museum. This was treated differently from the restored coaches in two respects:

 

- The edging to the beading, this time in gold, was applied to the flat surface of the beading, not the beveled edge.  I would not have thought this correct.

 

-  The returns of the frame for the drop lights was cream.

 

Could anyone explain the different treatments?  

 

Thanks

 

 

[Brassey]

I have seen photos of the C10 but nothing close-up.

 

The upper panel in pre-grouping days was reputedly painted white but the varnishing and weathering rendered it increasingly off-white/cream.  It was probably nothing like the custard colour of the post WW11 period.

 

 

[Miss Prism]

Lining on mouldings is often described as 'edged with', so the application on the quarter-round surface seems to be the norm.

 

Colours for perpendicular surfaces were never specified. On droplight edges, brown is the most commonly used, with cream being applied in fewer cases. I can't recall seeing a droplight edge in venetian red. Note the perpendicular edges on toplights are cream.

 

I suspect preservationists are not too fussed about the difference between gold and yellow.

 

The cream to brown gradient is specified for vent leaves.
 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Miss Prism
'edge' used in preference to 'surround', the latter being ambiguous

[K14]

6 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Anyway, the query arises from a door form a C10 of 1896 hanging in the museum. This was treated differently from the restored coaches in two respects:

 

- The edging to the beading, this time in gold, was applied to the flat surface of the beading, not the beveled edge.  I would not have thought this correct.

 

-  The returns of the frame for the drop lights was cream.

 

Could anyone explain the different treatments?  

 

Thanks

 

You left out: The door lock escutcheon plate is polished brass & not painted black & the 'Third' is a fanciful interpretation of that applied to Lake stock.

Sadly, the whole thing appears to be a flight of fancy & shouldn't be regarded as representing anything other than itself.

 

6 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Yesterday I found I had the carriage shed at Didcot to myself.  Unfortunately my camera battery ran out, so no pictures, but I made a close study of a number of vehicles.

 

These appeared to date from the turn of the Century, with build-dates ranging from the 1890s to 1902.  They were painted in fully lined chocolate and cream.

 

The livery application was much as I would have expected, with one or two features that I had not expected:

 

- There was no chocolate anywhere on the upper coach sides; the beading was black

 

- The beading was edged, the lining not on the face of the beading, but on the quarter-round edging. Such a b8gger where etched sides are concerned, as these lack the beveled edge. This is how I understood the lining was applied, although I was surprised to see this lining applied in yellow, not gold

 

If you had ever applied lining to the full-size article as I have, you'd find that the lining brush follows the mouldings more readily when applied to the apex of the moulding. The fingers use the moulding as a guiding edge & the brush size determines the lining width - Goose (#6) if memory serves, maybe a Large Duck (#4). The result leaves a narrow (1/8") black 'gap' between the line & the panel.

 

As to the colour... I've only ever seen a solid yellow/buff colour when rubbing down some old doors. That colour is referred to by signwriters as "Gold Colour" or "Old Gold" & has no relation to metallic gold paint, gold leaf, schlag, or bronze powder. The notion that coaches of all classes were lined in some form of gilt is, I suspect, down to a misinterpretation by one or two armchair historians.

 

6 hours ago, Edwardian said:

- The upper panels were cream, though in fact here cream was really more ivory.  I was surprised to see a tan-coloured distance line applied on the cream panels.

 

-  The drop light frames and bollections were painted in a tan-brown. The face of the frame surrounding the drop-lights was cream, but the returns were painted tan-brown, as I had thought would be the case.

 

The Cream = Ivory position is supported by the surviving side of the BG 1st No. 319 held at Bristol M Shed. That's pretty much all-original. At Didcot there's a partial side of a BG 3rd (No. 250) that shows a very pale Ivory/Cream that has the appearance of a very deep cream due to being over-varnished with something very thick & then tarred. It also shows traces of your 'distance line', painted in what I take to be Indian Red. See also this Blog thread

 

2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Colours for perpendicular surfaces were never specified. On droplight surrounds, brown is the most commonly used, with cream being applied in fewer cases. I can't recall seeing a droplight surround in venetian red. Note the perpendicular surrounds on toplights are cream.

 

Not so. Crop from Drawing 101837 dated July 1934 which states that droplights & the edges of their openings are to be painted 'Mahogany' colour:—

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

I suspect preservationists are not too fussed about the difference between gold and yellow.

 

Glass Houses, sir.

 

Pete S.

[Miss Prism]

4 hours ago, K14 said:

Not so. Crop from Drawing 101837 dated July 1934 which states that droplights & the edges of their openings are to be painted 'Mahogany' colour:

 

I'm aware of that. My comment above attempted to keep to the scope of the OP, which was about pre-1908 schemes.

 

Quote

Glass Houses, sir.

 

Fair comment.  I thought I would get into trouble saying that!

 

[Edwardian]

The ivory turning to cream with varnish does not surprise me.  The use of a yellow ochre instead of guilt to line the beading makes complete sense.  The treatment of the coaches in the carriage shed was as I had expected, then, save the distance line on the face of the panelling, which was a new one for me.

 

Once the carriage door in the museum is confirmed as inaccurate, my perplexity falls away.  

 

Thank you for the clrification.

 

By the way, only one coach had brown ends with black beading, which is what I had expected.  The others had black ends. 

[Miss Prism]

8 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

I can't recall seeing a droplight edge in venetian red.

 

Hmmm!!! Correction:

https://farm5.static.flickr.com/4492/37298818022_d0222ecc88_b.jpg

 

Note the colour of the 'gold' lining.

 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Miss Prism

[Compound2632]

On 21/10/2019 at 02:03, K14 said:

 

As to the colour... I've only ever seen a solid yellow/buff colour when rubbing down some old doors. That colour is referred to by signwriters as "Gold Colour" or "Old Gold" & has no relation to metallic gold paint, gold leaf, schlag, or bronze powder. The notion that coaches of all classes were lined in some form of gilt is, I suspect, down to a misinterpretation by one or two armchair historians.

 

 

I've quoted this before and it's Midland not Great Western but nevertheless, I think it's pertinent as demonstrating that gold leaf was used:

 

On 4 December 1891, Thomas Clayton, the Midland Railway's carriage superintendent, drew the attention of the Board's Carriage and Wagon Committee "to the uselessness of lining the parcels vans, carriage trucks, and many other vehicles that work on passenger trains, with gold leaf, inasmuch as such vehicles are not washed, and the dirty condition completely hides the gold lining, and he proposed (and the Committee agreed) to only use gold leaf lining on the passenger carriages and guards vans". [P.E. Baughan, The Midland Railway North of Leeds (2e David & Charles, 1987)]. I haven't checked that at Kew myself but it is presented as a quotation verbatim from the minutes.

 

By 1922, only dining carriages were still lined with gold leaf, other stock having gone over to yellow; this change presumed to be a wartime economy measure [G. Dow and R.E. Lacy, Midland Style (HMRS, 1975)].

 

In 1895 the Midland built some 54 ft 12-wheeled composites, authorised at an estimated cost of £817 5/- each [R.E. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Carriages (Wild Swan, 1986)]. A very rough calculation shows that there was about 1,100 ft of 5/16" wide gold lining, i.e. about 2.65 square metres. Gold leaf is currently around £200 per square metre - about £1 12/- in 1895 (assuming the price of gold has risen with inflation generally). So the cost of gold leaf for lining one of these carriages would be around £4 5/- or 0.5% of the total cost of the carriage.

Edited October 22, 2019 by Compound2632
Added ref. for 3rd paragraph.

[Steamport Southport]

Old Gold to me suggests a colour similar to that used by Wolverhampton Wanderers. The more traditional kit rather than the orange one they had a while ago.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[K14]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

Old Gold to me suggests a colour similar to that used by Wolverhampton Wanderers. The more traditional kit rather than the orange one they had a while ago.

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

Not a million miles off (assuming we're talking Derek Dougan-era Wolves)

 

I know using Pantones for paint references isn't a good idea, but 135C is pretty close.

 

https://www.e-paint.co.uk/Colour_alternatives.asp

https://www.mypantone.info/135C.html

 

Pete S.

[Hal Nail]

On 22/10/2019 at 11:59, Steamport Southport said:

Old Gold to me suggests a colour similar to that used by Wolverhampton Wanderers.

Also known as custard at the Hawthorns.

 

Sorry for the hijack but on a related topic, does anyone know what the small digits down by the buffer mean? Photo M Mensing - will remove if infringing copywrite.

[Steamport Southport]

Brake Composite?

 

 

 

Jason

[Miss Prism]

Yes. 6978 was an E140 Brake Composite.

 

 

Edited October 23, 2019 by Miss Prism

[Hal Nail]

Thanks both - blindingly obvious! Useful photo of the E147 too as i'm just working on a pair.

Edited October 23, 2019 by Hal Nail

[Miss Prism]

8 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Useful photo of the E147 too

 

Not quite.

 

W6218W is an E157 (of a single batch of 20). E157 was similar to the E147 but had two first class compartments (E147 had only one), slightly deeper windows, slightly flatter sides, unrecessed guards doors, and had conventional buffers at the non-brake end, and I understand generally worked as singles, so were not official 'B-sets'.

 

Some model E157 pics on Tom F's Cym Prysor thread.

 

I don't know when the 'BC' (etc) lettering appeared on the lower part of the sides - it's not in the 1949-51 painting spec, so I suspect it is a post-maroon embellishment.
 

[Hal Nail]

6 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

Not quite.

 

W6218W is an E157 (of a single batch of 20). E157 was similar to the E147 but had two first class compartments (E147 had only one), slightly deeper windows, slightly flatter sides, unrecessed guards doors, and had conventional buffers at the non-brake end, and I understand generally worked as singles, so were not official 'B-sets'.

 

Some model E157 pics on Tom F's Cym Prysor thread.

 

I don't know when the 'BC' (etc) lettering appeared on the lower part of the sides - it's not in the 1949-51 painting spec, so I suspect it is a post-maroon embellishment.
 

Thanks again - I had a feeling it would turn out not to be what I put but it's similar enough: the pair I've just picked up seemed to be riding a tad too high on the bogies and this view confirms.

 

There also appear to be a pair of numbers on the ends in the same size font appearing from maroon onwards but I am going for a layer of grime instead!

Edited October 24, 2019 by Hal Nail

[Penrhos1920]

Hijacking the topic again:  what is the nearest computer font to GWR coach letters and numbers?

[K14]

15 hours ago, Penrhos1920 said:

Hijacking the topic again:  what is the nearest computer font to GWR coach letters and numbers?

 

Thorne Shaded isn't a million miles from the Dean/Collett era:

 

 

https://www.1001fonts.com/thorne-shaded-font.html

 

What were you hoping to do with it?

[Penrhos1920]

Thanks K14, thinking of using it on bits of my website.

[Nearholmer]

These might or might not help: auctioneers’ photos of models of GWR coaches made by Carette c1910 for Bassett Lowke.

 

This is top-notch RTR tinplate, and I was interested to see that some of these are displayed at ‘Steam’ in Swindon.
 

There is clearly quite a variation in colour rendering of the photos, plus a bit of ageing of the tinware, but I would say that the bottom two are closest (on my screen at least) to the look of the actual models, which I take to be close to the real things at the time,

[Compound2632]

@Nearholmer, those are superb above the waterline - I dare say the reproduction of the livery has never been bettered, right down to the brown line on the cream panels - not obvious in photos of the restored vehicles at Didcot, though @Edwardian says it's there. Tan? 

 

A good variety of roof greys: that will please @Miss Prism! - treatment of the clerestory sides seems to have varied from batch to batch?

[Miss Prism]

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

not obvious in photos of the restored vehicles at Didcot, though @Edwardian says it's there. Tan? 

 

The line is brown, and is present.

 

Yes, the greys on the Carette roofs are very good, and a lesson for modern RTR merchants.

 

[Nearholmer]

The clerestory sides were, I’m fairly sure, brown, with lights/ventilators printed onto them, originally.

 

The white roof is a dodgy re-paint, and the roof on the bottom one has been ‘improved’ and repainted at some stage.

 

Repainted roofs are really common on old tinplate, I think because boys heaped the vehicles into big boxes, slinging track on top, chipping the roofs, while the sides and ends remained less scathed.

 

what is astonishing about these vehicles, and the rest of their work, is the perfect registration of the lithography. It must have involved several passes to print the different colours, of which there are actually quite a few, all with pinpoint registration, and I’m pretty sure that the relief was stamped into the tin after printing, so they had the technology of flexible inks perfect too.

 

Hornby tinprinting, which of course is twenty years later, looks crude beside this, and no modern ‘in the style of’ gets the solidity of colour, finesse, or registration .... digital processes struggle to match the analogue ones.

 

Truly a lost art.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2019 by Nearholmer

[Engineer]

Just an aside, not on the question but on the general emerging theme and may be of interest. The model in the images is 1/24th and was made by someone likely to have seen the real thing. It looks good yet is quite basic and may not represent a real vehicle.

 

 

 

[wagonman]

It's a T47 though I doubt it ever ran into Paddington.