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29 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Correct. Great Western Way says the double lining was applied to 'the best express stock'.

 

The hypotheses current in this thread is that clerestories were not considered to qualify as 'the best express stock' despite being run in the best expresses.

 

The latest edition of GW Way also has circular 4974A:  “in my circular 4974 of 29th November last is stated ‘all corridor bogie coaches for Main Line working”....Will you kindly note that all bogie coaches should be dealt with as main line vehicles.”

 

So initially clerestory coaches might not have been given double lining, but the second circular makes it clear that they should have been given double lining.  Also non-corridor coaches were given double lining.

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4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

(Do carriage marshalling documents survive and if so, do they enable the carriage diagrams to be identified?)

 

Carriage marshalling documents do survive and one can identify the carriage diagram sometimes by deduction for example if it states brake third with 3 compartments - there may not be many diagrams that fit that description.  Most of the descriptions were looser than that though.  But in the case of the LNWR for example, if it states 6 wheel break van, then the LNWR only made one diagram of that type in great quantity and was a vehicle in wide use in pre-grouping days.

 

Regarding "strengtheners", in the marshalling documents (sometimes confusingly called diagrams) movements were balanced which showed how the vehicles were allocated in both directions.  Sometimes the allocation was written on the solbar as per some photos in Russell so carriages usually worked the same train every day.  So I don't get the impression there was much stock unallocated lying around in sidings.  However, sometimes there may be a comments such as:  on market days Shrewsbury to provide an additional 2nd class carriage, so there must have been some.

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@Brassey, I've done some research with the Midland carriage marshalling documents - like the LNWR ones to which I think you are referring, these don't specify the diagram but from the description, number of seats/compartments, and weight the diagram is usually unambiguous (except for Bain clerestory 54 ft corridor carriages, where there are several diagrams of composite and third that are functionally identical but differ in external details). 

 

However, my question was whether such documents survive for the GWR, specifically at the period in question - late 20s early 30s.

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43 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

However, my question was whether such documents survive for the GWR, specifically at the period in question - late 20s early 30s.

 

I have some GWR documents for 1912 (my period of interest) which I believe are at Kew

 

PS: my documents (also 1912), from the L&NWR Society Study Centre, are for the LNWR/GWR joint lines so cover the GWR too to a certain extent

Edited by Brassey
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15 hours ago, Penrhos1920 said:

So initially clerestory coaches might not have been given double lining, but the second circular makes it clear that they should have been given double lining.  Also non-corridor coaches were given double lining.

 

Thanks.

 

Does GWW Ed 2 carry some evidence for this complete about-turn?

 

Does GWW Ed 2 specifically note the return of single lining in 1934 or is just conveyed on the 1934 diagram?

 

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On 16/11/2019 at 13:47, Miss Prism said:

 

Thanks.

 

Does GWW Ed 2 carry some evidence for this complete about-turn?

 

Does GWW Ed 2 specifically note the return of single lining in 1934 or is just conveyed on the 1934 diagram?

 

 

GWW ed2 doesn’t have any evidence that this happened.  Which is why I’m asking for photos.

 

It does however note that in 1933 new coaches where no longer being painted with double lining.

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On 16/11/2019 at 02:39, Brassey said:

 

Carriage marshalling documents do survive and one can identify the carriage diagram sometimes by deduction for example if it states brake third with 3 compartments - there may not be many diagrams that fit that description.  Most of the descriptions were looser than that though.  But in the case of the LNWR for example, if it states 6 wheel break van, then the LNWR only made one diagram of that type in great quantity and was a vehicle in wide use in pre-grouping days.

 

Regarding "strengtheners", in the marshalling documents (sometimes confusingly called diagrams) movements were balanced which showed how the vehicles were allocated in both directions.  Sometimes the allocation was written on the solbar as per some photos in Russell so carriages usually worked the same train every day.  So I don't get the impression there was much stock unallocated lying around in sidings.  However, sometimes there may be a comments such as:  on market days Shrewsbury to provide an additional 2nd class carriage, so there must have been some.

Carriage marshalling documents specify the accommodation that the service required (1st, 3rd, catering, sleeping, van, postal, newspaper, slips portions etc.) and the marshalling order, but does not specify the diagram number, just the type of coach.  For example, if a service required an FK, any FK of any type with the correct number of seats could be used, irrespective of what it looked like.  

 

Rakes of matching stock might be provided for prestige services, but were often broken up and the general melee restored after the fuss around the service launch had died down.  By and large, trains were made up at the carriage depots by bespoke marshalling to suit the individual service, based on previous ticket sales and expectation of exceptional traffic (Bank Holidays, sporting events, xmas, extra FO for a party booking), unlike the current fixed rake one size fits all set rakes and fixed units of modern traffic.  

 

Matching stock took off in the 30s with the 'Coronation', 'Silver Jubilee' and 'Coronation Scot' services, a bit atypical of normal practice and aggressively promoted with special liveries with matching streamlined locos to emphasise the point.  The war stopped this game very shortly after it started, with the Coronation Scot coaches stranded in the US for the duration.  

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23 hours ago, The Johnster said:

By and large, trains were made up at the carriage depots by bespoke marshalling

 

As the OP was about pre-grouping carriages, my marshalling contribution was based purely on pre-grouping observations; I have no knowledge of other periods which may have differed.

 

In the interests of some who may want further illumination, herewith marshalling from the GWR for the Summer of 1912.  As can be seen, the means by which these carriages returned was already established in the internal marshalling documentation of the railway.  These carriages did not go off to carriage depots but were held at the destinations to be returned (balanced in LNWR terminology) from whence they came to form the same service the next day:

 

Marshalling.jpg.c00975f8db9e92bc8ddb5469d25443e0.jpg

 

As can be seen, a number of LNWR stock ended as far away as Penzance, Plymouth, Exeter and Bristol returning to Crewe along with some GWR vehicles that finished in Liverpool and Manchester.

 

The WCJS 6 wheel Fish Van (of which there was probably only one diagram) must have returned from Bristol to Aberdeen empty via an undisclosed route!

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15 hours ago, Brassey said:

 

In the interests of some who may want further illumination, herewith marshalling from the GWR for the Summer of 1912.  As can be seen, the means by which these carriages returned was already established in the internal marshalling documentation of the railway.  These carriages did not go off to carriage depots but were held at the destinations to be returned (balanced in LNWR terminology) from whence they came to form the same service the next day:

 

The WCJS 6 wheel Fish Van (of which there was probably only one diagram) must have returned from Bristol to Aberdeen empty via an undisclosed route!

 

That format is similar to the Midland carriage marshalling books, except that the Midland ones also give the number of compartments (later seats) for each class and the weight, from which the diagram can be identified. Here's an extract, also North & West, summer 1911:

 

267545949_1911NorthWestmarshallingextract.JPG.4cf6e69c7700fdad24b50eb72a0d9e03.JPG

 

I suspect that that WCJS fish van went back to Aberdeen by goods train, which would explain why it doesn't appear in the carriage marshalling book. It's probably on a two-day circuit.

Edited by Compound2632

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35 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I suspect that that WCJS fish van went back to Aberdeen by goods train, which would explain why it doesn't appear in the carriage marshalling book. It's probably on a two-day circuit.

The owning companies of the fish vans, from Aberdeen and Hull are not specified, whereas everything else is GW, NW or WCJS so we might perhaps be looking at GNoS or CR from Aberdeen, and NE or H&B from Hull,  The train would look excellent, carriages being practically alternately LNW and GWR, and also practically alternately PBV and passenger carrying vehicles, and by 1912 the roof lines would potentially be half a dozen different varieties.

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1 hour ago, webbcompound said:

NE or H&B from Hull

 

As far as I can work out*, the H&B had no fish trucks of its own of any description. I believe that Alexandra Dock was not equipped to handle fish. The document says Grimsby & Hull, so it could potentially be a Great Central fish truck, though I suspect that any such for Bristol would have travelled via Lincoln and the Midland route - likewise anything off the H&B, via Cudworth. So most probably North Eastern, via Leeds.

 

*Ref: J.B. Dawson et al., North Eastern Record Vol. 2 (HMRS, 1997).

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