DCC starting out - I'm not a techy but so far its been worth it!

[halsey]

On 11/11/2019 at 10:05, Phil S said:

Depending on how you plan your scenery - all wiring CAN be 'above board' - in all senses of the phrase 8-)

If you wer to use a 1cm layer of XPS foam - over your existing surface, it would also help quieten the trains running  ( although a rigid ballast glue would then make it a bit louder again )

Then you can easily, from above the board, copy the Gas, Electricity Water Phone and Network Rail in 'digging down' to bury any wiring rather than trying to find a 'conveneient australian' working from the othe side of the world !  A 2cm layer would allow Peco type point motors to be fitted below points without encroaching on the wooden board.

 

Depending on how you have done your framing - you may wish to start by marking their position on the top surface - for those DEEP items like Dapol Signals or Train Tech 'analogue'  Signals

 

PS I use spots of copydex to secure the track - I stopped using track pins many years ago !!

PPS XPS Foam (fireretardant/firefproofed buildong insulation)  is easily carved for 3D scenery, and is light in weight. Model railways do not need to be back nreaking !

 

If I use track pins in the XPS it secures it enough to lay and cut can I then drip/spot anything (glue!) over the top to secure it without the need for re-lifting

 

Sorry to proliferate a thread which is now off track.

[dhjgreen]

21 minutes ago, halsey said:

 

If I use track pins in the XPS it secures it enough to lay and cut can I then drip/spot anything (glue!) over the top to secure it without the need for re-lifting

 

Sorry to proliferate a thread which is now off track.

Go with the flow, it is your topic after all .

[Phil S]

Perfect alignment can be achieved at a baseboard join by sliding the fishplate across half way from one board to the other..... simply cut back the chairs to allow the fishplate to be fully retracted in transit, and use a pair of pliers / fine screwdriver on its back edge to push the fishplatr onto the adjacent rail.

(However - I would ensure that there was a SECURE FASTENING SYSTEM actually holding the adjacent boards together )

 

if you are worried that it will be 'too loose for reliable electrical contact' - no problem - its not expected to be used for that (although that does work) .... you have plugged inter-board feeds which connect to the adjacent tracks.

 

If you wanted a bit of alignment tolerance - then leave the last few centimetres of track 'unglued' or perhaps with only copydex (not all the way to the edge)**  - to allow a millimetre of flexibility.

 

** any ballast to the edge can have a separate paper base glued beneath the sleepers

 

Note that this is best done with UNSTRESSED track - ie straight to straight or pre-curved to the required radius so that it NATURALLY aligns.   This also works with H0e/009 as well as 00/H0 ... and in G Scale it is the 'only' precise alignment we used when locating adjacent doors (boards) ... although in this case it is the brass profile Massoth rail joiners/screw clamps which provide both the aligment AND electrical conduction for the 17m+ long layout ( LGB rail being large corss-section brass and a very good conductor unlike Nickel Silver ) .   We use cable ties to secure the doors together for physical security ... tightened once the rails are clamped together.  

 

For smaller gauges the boards benefit from/need  bolts or location-dowels to provide the physical anti-knock security.

 

On many layouts a popular approach is to have a short removable section which is inserted in the gap - ensuring the fixed track is protected in transit by being bck from the edge.

A method of using this - which is admittedly easier with ready ballasted track  - but can be made to work with peco - is to 'secure' the drop-in section with Neo magnets  [1cm-2cm diameter works okay] , and to locate the rail in position 'effectively by a jig' - eg raised ballast either side of the sleepers, representation of cable trunking concrete channels  ... or similar..   and to avoid the piece being lost in transit, it is connected permanently to one of the boards by a pair of wires providing the track power.

This allows alignment and conduction WITHOUT any fishplates being needed.

 

Over my many years in the hobby, I have been making my baseboards lighter and lighter  ... our whole Skandi layout 5.4m x 1.5m x 2 levels (without STOCK onboard !!!) can be lifted and relocated by just 2 people ... it is made of Aluminium Framing and XPS foam.  Yes it 'flexes' in transit (if the 3m long board is twisted) but that is not a problem - there is no rigid plaster used in the scenery.  It has diagonal bracing of the frame, and other intermediate supports for the foam, and when it is set up, it is once again 'flat'.   There is no need to demolish a forest to produce a back-breaking layout that cannot be relocated.  

[halsey]

1 hour ago, Phil S said:

Perfect alignment can be achieved at a baseboard join by sliding the fishplate across half way from one board to the other..... simply cut back the chairs to allow the fishplate to be fully retracted in transit, and use a pair of pliers / fine screwdriver on its back edge to push the fishplatr onto the adjacent rail.

(However - I would ensure that there was a SECURE FASTENING SYSTEM actually holding the adjacent boards together )

 

if you are worried that it will be 'too loose for reliable electrical contact' - no problem - its not expected to be used for that (although that does work) .... you have plugged inter-board feeds which connect to the adjacent tracks.

 

If you wanted a bit of alignment tolerance - then leave the last few centimetres of track 'unglued' or perhaps with only copydex (not all the way to the edge)**  - to allow a millimetre of flexibility.

 

** any ballast to the edge can have a separate paper base glued beneath the sleepers

 

Note that this is best done with UNSTRESSED track - ie straight to straight or pre-curved to the required radius so that it NATURALLY aligns.   This also works with H0e/009 as well as 00/H0 ... and in G Scale it is the 'only' precise alignment we used when locating adjacent doors (boards) ... although in this case it is the brass profile Massoth rail joiners/screw clamps which provide both the aligment AND electrical conduction for the 17m+ long layout ( LGB rail being large corss-section brass and a very good conductor unlike Nickel Silver ) .   We use cable ties to secure the doors together for physical security ... tightened once the rails are clamped together.  

 

For smaller gauges the boards benefit from/need  bolts or location-dowels to provide the physical anti-knock security.

 

On many layouts a popular approach is to have a short removable section which is inserted in the gap - ensuring the fixed track is protected in transit by being bck from the edge.

A method of using this - which is admittedly easier with ready ballasted track  - but can be made to work with peco - is to 'secure' the drop-in section with Neo magnets  [1cm-2cm diameter works okay] , and to locate the rail in position 'effectively by a jig' - eg raised ballast either side of the sleepers, representation of cable trunking concrete channels  ... or similar..   and to avoid the piece being lost in transit, it is connected permanently to one of the boards by a pair of wires providing the track power.

This allows alignment and conduction WITHOUT any fishplates being needed.

 

Over my many years in the hobby, I have been making my baseboards lighter and lighter  ... our whole Skandi layout 5.4m x 1.5m x 2 levels (without STOCK onboard !!!) can be lifted and relocated by just 2 people ... it is made of Aluminium Framing and XPS foam.  Yes it 'flexes' in transit (if the 3m long board is twisted) but that is not a problem - there is no rigid plaster used in the scenery.  It has diagonal bracing of the frame, and other intermediate supports for the foam, and when it is set up, it is once again 'flat'.   There is no need to demolish a forest to produce a back-breaking layout that cannot be relocated.  

 

Sorry great answer but not quite what I was asking - this is a permanent layout and the bridge joints are not the issue - its that the pins wont provide a secure enough fixing for years of use so I'm asking for confirmation that I could for example spot glue various track runs from the top using PVA for example - IMHO points will be secure enough if all straights are secure  - it will be a very long time before I ballast 

[Ron Ron Ron]

Sorry guys. As interesting as it is, discussion on layout construction, baseboard joints and gluing track should really be posted in the relevant section of the forum.

With due respect, this is the DCC Help & Questions section.

 

If anything, someone else looking for knowledge and information on layout construction methods and techniques, won’t be searching in this DCC section for help or inspiration.

For the benefit of all, may I humbly suggest that your unquestionably wisdom and experience is posted where it might be of the greatest possible use to others.

Best regards to all.

Ron

 

 

For mash get smash.

[boxbrownie]

35 minutes ago, halsey said:

 

Sorry great answer but not quite what I was asking - this is a permanent layout and the bridge joints are not the issue - its that the pins wont provide a secure enough fixing for years of use so I'm asking for confirmation that I could for example spot glue various track runs from the top using PVA for example - IMHO points will be secure enough if all straights are secure  - it will be a very long time before I ballast 

Halsey.....I think that answer might be aimed at my query, but you can have it also  @Phil S........some great ideas there, although my layout is going to be primarily a permanent layout I do need to make it “break downable” for moving (which WILL happen in the next few years....again!), as I said I will be using sectional ready ballasted track (Trix-C) and I actually like the idea of using very short section of track fixed with the magnets, that’s a great idea.......it all depends upon just how much room/space there is at the track sections and breaks, the baseboards themselves are already commercially made, the same as used on the GMRC, so each joint is well aligned.

 

@Ron Ron Ron.......if you can get the last few posts moved to the relevant section I am sure as you say it would be of better use.

[halsey]

Sorry guys my fault - I'm out of here...…………...

Edited November 18, 2019 by halsey

[halsey]

The power of E Bay - I have just bought an "as new" Gaugemaster Prodigy Advance (2) set on E bay - a bit of an impulse as the price was VG - will now reflect further.

 

Back on track now...…………..

 

So what I need now is encouragement...……………..

Edited November 19, 2019 by halsey

[Pete the Elaner]

On 15/11/2019 at 13:14, halsey said:

 

THANKS for this Nick - DCC is not for me 

3 minutes ago, halsey said:

The power of E Bay - I have just bought an "as new" Gaugemaster Prodigy Advance (2) set on E bay - a bit of an impulse as the price was VG - will now reflect further.

 

Back on track now...…………..

Oops. That wasn't planned was it?  

You have just opened the door to a whole new experience of running trains, but don't try running before you can walk.

Everything more complicated you have read on this thread is unimportant at this time. Re-familiarise yourself with this new method of running trains first.

 

I started with DCC with a small 2 track test plank, running locos slowly up & down independently of each other to get the feel of things.

The freedom of moving one along a little then following it with the next loco, buffering them up wherever I wanted, helped me get a different feeling to what I had ever got from DC. After about 15 minutes, I was convinced that it was right for me.

Everything else came later, when I was ready for it.

[dhjgreen]

52 minutes ago, halsey said:

The power of E Bay - I have just bought an "as new" Gaugemaster Prodigy Advance (2) set on E bay - a bit of an impulse as the price was VG - will now reflect further.

 

Back on track now...…………..

 

So what I need now is encouragement...……………..

This is the same kit as I have, I have three handsets for EMGS running nights and only use it for driving trains (no sound).  I am very happy with it, good luck to you.

[boxbrownie]

16 hours ago, halsey said:

Sorry guys my fault - I'm out of here...…………...

Wow that was the shortest missing persons report ever 

[halsey]

42 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Oops. That wasn't planned was it?  

You have just opened the door to a whole new experience of running trains, but don't try running before you can walk.

Everything more complicated you have read on this thread is unimportant at this time. Re-familiarise yourself with this new method of running trains first.

 

I started with DCC with a small 2 track test plank, running locos slowly up & down independently of each other to get the feel of things.

The freedom of moving one along a little then following it with the next loco, buffering them up wherever I wanted, helped me get a different feeling to what I had ever got from DC. After about 15 minutes, I was convinced that it was right for me.

Everything else came later, when I was ready for it.

 

No total impulse...……..

I do like Gaugemaster stuff and their support is excellent (as it is on here)

The first plus for me was the ability to lay track without worrying about isolating joiners...………………..

Looking forward to playing soon'ish…………...

[halsey]

Decoders??

My first loco change will be a Bachmann 21DCC ready Diesel

[Pete the Elaner]

1 minute ago, halsey said:

 

The first plus for me was the ability to lay track without worrying about isolating joiners...………………..

 

I would use these on the heel end of every point, then re-feed afterwards, so every siding is live. Don't get carried away yet though. A small test plank will be ideal to get used to driving with DCC & may come in useful later if & when you want a programming track.

[Pete the Elaner]

2 minutes ago, halsey said:

Decoders??

My first loco change will be a Bachmann 21DCC ready Diesel

I am one of the many Zimo fans.

They do a decent 8 pin decoder for £20 (MX600R) but the 21 pin is more expensive, MX634D for £35.

Lenz are also well-liked, but the only 1 I have is a 6 pin mini, which I find a little jerky.

[Nigelcliffe]

29 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I am one of the many Zimo fans.

They do a decent 8 pin decoder for £20 (MX600R) but the 21 pin is more expensive, MX634D for £35.

Lenz are also well-liked, but the only 1 I have is a 6 pin mini, which I find a little jerky.

 

There are sources of 8-pin (decoder) to 21 pin (loco) adaptors which will cost under £5 - any decent DCC supplier should have these.  Thus, 8 pin decoder can be fitted, which is probably the cheaper way into quality decoders.   I'd do that rather than fit a "cheap but not as good" decoder. 

 

There are advantages to using the 21 pin socket directly, notably access to more functions, decoder positive+ground for stay-alive, and wiring neatness if using sound.  But for basic features it may not be worth it. 

 

[dhjgreen]

47 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

I am one of the many Zimo fans.

They do a decent 8 pin decoder for £20 (MX600R) but the 21 pin is more expensive, MX634D for £35.

Lenz are also well-liked, but the only 1 I have is a 6 pin mini, which I find a little jerky.

All my stock, steam and diesel, is fitted with Lenz; very happy with them.  They work well with power hungry Heljan too.

[jpendle]

Don't ruin the experience by buying cheap decoders, and don't assume Hornby would be best in a Hornby model, etc.

 

My vote is for Zimo, I use these exclusively when fitting decoders myself, many here like Lenz, and ESU are also very good.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[WIMorrison]

Some - but not all - Bachmann decoders are Zimo under the skin

[Pete the Elaner]

3 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

Some - but not all - Bachmann decoders are Zimo under the skin

At the moment they are but the problem is that Bachmann have been known to change their spec on the quiet, so in 6 months time, they may change it for a cheapie with less features & poor motor control.

For this reason, I try to avoid DCC fitted locos & fit my own choice of decoder.

[WIMorrison]

I always look for the tiny (and I do mean tiny) Zimo logo on the box - if it ain’t there I don’t buy it.

 

Normally I would buy OEM Zimo but sometimes speed needs and Bachmann fills the gap in those occasions  

[Ron Ron Ron]

20 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

At the moment they are but the problem is that Bachmann have been known to change their spec on the quiet, so in 6 months time, they may change it for a cheapie with less features & poor motor control........

When has that happened?
The only times that there has been a change “on the quiet”, was.....

a. when Bachmann replaced the old Soundtraxx supplied 36-557 21-pin decoder with a better ESU sourced model, but instead of giving it a new Bachmann catalogue number, for some inexplicable reason, retained the number 36-557 for what is a completely different decoder.
b. when the original 36-553 was upgraded from 2 digit address to 4 digit address.

 

Sorry Pete, I don’t believe that Bachmann has ever downgraded the spec. of the decoders they have sold under their own brand.

They have changed suppliers several times.

All of their decoders are rebadged models from well known decoder manufacturers, until recently from the budget end of those manufacturers offerings.

If anything, the current crop of Bachmann badged decoders is an improvement on what has gone before.

The Soundtraxx models they used for a few years have not been well regarded by some users reporting on this forum, but Bachmann have dropped that supplier and gone back to using ESU and now some Zimo models too.

 

n.b. Bachmann decoders have been supplied by....

Lenz (-550, -551 & -552)

ESU (-553 & -554 ... a.k.a. LokPilot Basic 1.0 )

Soundtraxx (original version of the -557 & the -558)

...then they switched back to ESU (second version of the -557 plus the -566. a.k.a. LokPilot Standard)

along with the more recent Zimo (-567, -568A & -569)

 

The only one I don’t know the provenance of, is the 90 degree 6-pin 36-556RA.

 

Ron

 

 

 

.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Ron Ron Ron

[Nigelcliffe]

6 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

The only one I don’t know the provenance of, is the 90 degree 6-pin 36-556RA.

 

 

I'm fairly certain that one tests out as another Soundtraxx decoder.

 

- Nigel

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

5 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

 

I'm fairly certain that one tests out as another Soundtraxx decoder.

 

- Nigel

 

Thanks Nigel. I always suspected as much, but have never found any info on it, to say for sure.

 

Ron

[halsey]

OK...………..

Talk to me about pins - if the box says 21DCC does that mean you should fit a 21 pin decoder??

Will an 8 pin fit how many pin variations are there and why - presumably they relate to function

If an old loco doesn't have any ref to DCC on the box does that mean is only DC compatible or can DCC still be fitted

I only have a stable of app 6 locos still packed away after the move 

 

Next one - re points does it matter what points you use mine are all insulfrog and what is a DCC clip - I appreciate that these are very basic questions to which I can find the answers but I always find the range of replies interesting