DCC starting out - I'm not a techy but so far its been worth it!

[Nigelcliffe]

Pins -  its the size, shape and number of connections.  There are quite a few different ones, but the common types are:

 

6-pin small, mostly N or small OO locos.  Two lighting function outputs.

8-pin old standard-ish for OO. Three lighting function outputs.

21pin - or 21MTC - fairly ancient connection, with lots of historic anomalies in its design (and thus two versions in a "standard"!).  Despite being officially obsolete, a surprisingly large number of models continue to be designed to use it.

PLUX - newer multi-pin arrangement, primarily for HO/OO and above.  Has modular arrangement so a Plux-12 decoder will fit a larger Plux socket (though without all the features of the larger pin count).  

Next18 - newer small multi-pin arrangement, primarily for N.   

 

Hornby have also had their own connector for a few items, think it was four-pins.  Run-away from that one, or rewire the loco!

 

In general, pin count relates to number of functions (typically lighting outputs), though the 21/Plux/Next also include connections useful for speakers, stay-alive modules and other features.   

 

If you want to use a different decoder to the socket in the loco (eg. an 8pin into a 21pin socket), then you need some sort of adaptor device.  Hence comment I made earlier about getting a cheap 21pin to 8pin adaptor, and then using an 8pin decoder in the loco.  

(The exception is within the Plux socket range, where differnet Plux decoders/sockets are interchangable to an extent). 

 

 

 

DCC conversion.  If the loco description doesn't tell you, then assume no socket provided.   So, conversion is then a "hardwire", where you modify the loco's wiring to insert a decoder.   How difficult this is depends on the loco.  Some are simple, some more difficult.  None are impossible.

 

 

Track wiring.  At the most basic, exactly the same for DC or DCC.   If it works for one, stuff runs on the other.

The main key differences: 

if using a "track clip" to connect power to the rails, then make sure it doesn't have any suppression components inside it - they filter the DCC signal, so it doesn't work!

track isolation.  In DC wiring people often use the turnouts to turn off power to a route/siding.  In DCC generally try not to do that because lights go out, or sound stops. 

 

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

18 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

.....if using a "track clip" to connect power to the rails, then make sure it doesn't have any suppression components inside it - they filter the DCC signal, so it doesn't work!

 

 

Just a note of caution.

Halsey may have been talking about those Hornby DCC  track clips, that are meant to be fitted in turnouts to make them more DCC friendly?

Edited November 20, 2019 by Ron Ron Ron

[grriff]

If an old loco has no reference to DCC on the box, it may be possible to fit a decoder. As I understand the issue, it is essential that the motor is completely isolated from the track current, or the DCC chip will fail. Some older locos may have a 'live chassis' where the motor is connected to the chassis for one feed and to one side of the wheels for the other. Unless the motor can be isolated from the chassis in some way, these locos can't be converted.

Where the motor can be isolated, that is wheels from each side of the loco feed the motor, conversion should be possible. I've done it with a Hornby Thomas (instructions https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/Hornby-dcc/decoder-installation-guides/r351-thomas-the-tank-engine-0-6-0-decoder-installation). (This is worth looking at whatever your loco, as the principles are the same). There is also a Railway Modeller 'Shows you how' booklet on DCC decoder installation, which is probably worth buying. This includes how to convert an older Bachmann loco with a split chassis.

One obvious problem is space within the loco body to fit the decoder. Before buying a decoder, check that it will fit the loco. You may also need space for a 'stay alive' capacitor. These store electricity to prevent locos stalling when there is a loss of supply. In my experience they are not necessary if you have locos with sprung wheels, clean track, clean wheels and, preferably, live frogs. However my 'Thomas' does not have sprung wheels and even though wheels and track are clean, it frequently stalls on my insulated frog points. However my Bachmann 56XX, with sprung wheels, has no problem.

A DCC clip (https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/Hornby-digital-electric-point-clips.html) is used to provide power to track when the point is not switched to that track. In other words, sidings are always live. My neighbour uses them on his extensive layout with very few problems. They can be difficult to fit and I'm not convinced of their electrical connectivity. They are often dislodged by a derailment. I don't use them on a much smaller layout because my sidings don't need current when the point is not switched to them.  I would plan to provide feeds to all the track which will require current whatever the point direction.

[halsey]

48 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

Pins -  its the size, shape and number of connections.  There are quite a few different ones, but the common types are:

 

6-pin small, mostly N or small OO locos.  Two lighting function outputs.

8-pin old standard-ish for OO. Three lighting function outputs.

21pin - or 21MTC - fairly ancient connection, with lots of historic anomalies in its design (and thus two versions in a "standard"!).  Despite being officially obsolete, a surprisingly large number of models continue to be designed to use it.

PLUX - newer multi-pin arrangement, primarily for HO/OO and above.  Has modular arrangement so a Plux-12 decoder will fit a larger Plux socket (though without all the features of the larger pin count).  

Next18 - newer small multi-pin arrangement, primarily for N.   

 

Hornby have also had their own connector for a few items, think it was four-pins.  Run-away from that one, or rewire the loco!

 

In general, pin count relates to number of functions (typically lighting outputs), though the 21/Plux/Next also include connections useful for speakers, stay-alive modules and other features.   

 

If you want to use a different decoder to the socket in the loco (eg. an 8pin into a 21pin socket), then you need some sort of adaptor device.  Hence comment I made earlier about getting a cheap 21pin to 8pin adaptor, and then using an 8pin decoder in the loco.  

(The exception is within the Plux socket range, where differnet Plux decoders/sockets are interchangable to an extent). 

 

 

 

DCC conversion.  If the loco description doesn't tell you, then assume no socket provided.   So, conversion is then a "hardwire", where you modify the loco's wiring to insert a decoder.   How difficult this is depends on the loco.  Some are simple, some more difficult.  None are impossible.

 

 

Track wiring.  At the most basic, exactly the same for DC or DCC.   If it works for one, stuff runs on the other.

The main key differences: 

if using a "track clip" to connect power to the rails, then make sure it doesn't have any suppression components inside it - they filter the DCC signal, so it doesn't work!

track isolation.  In DC wiring people often use the turnouts to turn off power to a route/siding.  In DCC generally try not to do that because lights go out, or sound stops. 

 

 

Starting to get a bit confused already - so if I want to use sound then do I always need 21 pins

Clips not needed then

Points if I get it - generally wire to be live both sides

Is there an issue with electrofrog v insulfrog - all mine are insul but I'm going to have to buy more so which is best for DCC

Edited November 20, 2019 by halsey

[Ron Ron Ron]

51 minutes ago, halsey said:

Starting to get a bit confused already - so if I want to use sound then do I always need 21 pins....

 

No.

Sound decoders are available with a variety of connector types.

 

Just as an example.

The ESU LokSound V5 is available with....

 

6-pin, 8-pin, 21-pin MTC & PluX22  in H0/00 sizes...

 

...as well as a Direct Fit version for N. American models,

 

...and 4x large scale versions (L & XL), 

 

Also there's a Micro version of the V5, available with...

6-pin, 8-pin, Next18, PluX16, plus a version with bare wires for hardwiring..

 

 

.

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Ron Ron Ron

[Nigelcliffe]

21 minutes ago, halsey said:

Starting to get a bit confused already - so if I want to use sound then do I always need 21 pins

 

 

No.    

21pin, or Plux, or Next, only make the wiring simpler:  the connections for speakers are within the loco, so can be wired inside the loco without the decoder being present.  ( Or even, in some cases, be fitted, and wired by the manufacturer ).

With 6pin or 8pin, the speaker has to be attached with wires coming out of the end of the decoder.  So, its not as neat, there are more wires to bundle into a loco.  But it works.

 

 

Turnouts - The best turnouts for running reliability are live frogs (electrofrogs) because there are no bits of plastic track which cannot pass power to the wheels.    This is the same for DC or DCC.    The downside is that live frogs usually take a bit more effort to wire them and switch the polarity of the frog. 

[Andymsa]

56 minutes ago, halsey said:

Starting to get a bit confused already - so if I want to use sound then do I always need 21 pins

Clips not needed then

Points if I get it - generally wire to be live both sides

Is there an issue with electrofrog v insulfrog - all mine are insul but I'm going to have to buy more so which is best for DCC

hi,

 

before looking at sound get used to the basics in other words don’t run before you can walk. Build a small oval test board and learn from the mistakes here before starting your main layout build as mistakes made here will be harder to rectify later. Just don’t get bogged down in the detail.

 

andy

[halsey]

1 hour ago, Andymsa said:

hi,

 

before looking at sound get used to the basics in other words don’t run before you can walk. Build a small oval test board and learn from the mistakes here before starting your main layout build as mistakes made here will be harder to rectify later. Just don’t get bogged down in the detail.

 

andy

Totally agree and understand but I have got to buy 2 decoders to get 2 locos running DCC and I'm just trying to make sure I spend the £50 'ish involved correctly with no knowledge to draw from as yet...……………….

one of the locos is labelled 21DCC and the other I think is 8DCC both Bachmann

Having started looking about it seems that decoders come with wires or not ???

So if I want sound later on do I need 2 decoders and a speaker per loco to use sound - how does it all fit in

Edited November 20, 2019 by halsey

[Junctionmad]

There’s no particular complication with dcc sound as all the complexity is in the decoder , the only real user issue is fitting the speaker   Particularly if the loco doesn’t have predetermined location , but it’s largely a mechanical issue not a technology one. 
 

you generally need a wired decoder if  your loco isn’t” dcc ready “   If it is there will be a connector in the loco with a blanking plate on it. The decoder plugs in there. PIN numbers will be determined by the socket size. 
 

nothing particularly difficult or strange 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Junctionmad

[grriff]

You will need a decoder with the appropriate plug. I suggest you remove the loco body and photograph the socket. Take/send this to the retailer when buying the decoder (or quote the exact details of the loco) and ask them for options . Some decoders plug directly into the socket (OK if there is space); some come with wires attached to a plug (useful for placing the decoder in the best place).

[Andymsa]

4 hours ago, halsey said:

Totally agree and understand but I have got to buy 2 decoders to get 2 locos running DCC and I'm just trying to make sure I spend the £50 'ish involved correctly with no knowledge to draw from as yet...……………….

one of the locos is labelled 21DCC and the other I think is 8DCC both Bachmann

Having started looking about it seems that decoders come with wires or not ???

So if I want sound later on do I need 2 decoders and a speaker per loco to use sound - how does it all fit in

hi

 

21dcc I would take as a 21 mtc connection this is a decoder with no wires and is a direct plug in.

 

8 dcc is a 8 pin plug on a wire harness.

 

no you only need one decoder for sound, but you have to put in a sound decoder and a speaker. This can be a challenge but sometimes there is a specific place to put the speaker. If you get non sound decoders now and you want sound you just change the decoder and put the other decoders into something else.

[jpendle]

Hi,

 

You can plug in a non sound DCC decoder to your loco and run it on DCC.

You can plug in a sound DCC decoder instead and run it on DCC, but with no sounds.

You can plug in a sound DCC decoder that has had a "sound project" loaded which matches your loco, and attach a speaker, and then run it on DCC with sound.

 

You can always get the various 'sound project' suppliers to add a speaker and suitably programmed DCC decoder to your loco's for you, rather than buy all the bits yourself and do the conversion.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[Ron Ron Ron]

7 hours ago, halsey said:

....So if I want sound later on do I need 2 decoders and a speaker per loco to use sound - how does it all fit in

 

No. You will normally only have one decoder per loco.

That decoder will either be a non-sound decoder, or a sound decoder.

 

There are some non-sound decoders that have a built-in interface (SUSI) that allows them to accept an add-on sound module later on, but those add-on sound modules are very rare and almost an abandoned development.

Therefore it's a choice of either a non-sound decoder, or a sound decoder.

 

If you don't want sound to start with, or it's too costly, then use a non-sound decoder initially and when you want, or are able to purchase a sound decoder, just swap them over and use the non-sound decoder in another loco, re-purpose it, or sell it.

 

Some sound decoders come with a speaker and others without.

There are lots of different speaker models to consider.

Fitting the speaker is usually the challenging bit, especially in steam outline models.

 

.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Ron Ron Ron

[halsey]

Thanks - clarity ……………….

I will find and unpack my locos review and list then ask for your ZIMO recommendations preferably for sound decoders (better long term investment and sound is a main driver for me to entertain DCC more so than lights for example) 

Simple questions with simple (as possible) answers are much appreciated

Another question - if I don't want to DCC control my points will I have to retain my DC controller to supply the right power to my current stock of "ordinary" peco point motors as was the case on my old layout?

Continuing thanks

[grriff]

36 minutes ago, halsey said:

Another question - if I don't want to DCC control my points will I have to retain my DC controller to supply the right power to my current stock of "ordinary" peco point motors as was the case on my old layout?

Continuing thanks

You will need to retain your DC controller as any DCC system you buy probably will not be able to supply the necessary power. It's better to keep the two systems (trains and point motors) entirely separate. I've done this, using an old H&M Clipper controller to supply my Peco point motors.

[halsey]

Ok - Locos

 

My 7 locos are Bachmann...……...

 

3 are labelled DCC one is a 2 car DMU labelled 8DCC and 6DCC the other a Fairburn tank is labelled 8DCC and the other LMS10001 early diesel is labelled 21DCC

 

I would like to convert 2 to start with (ZIMO) and I don't mind which (probably the Fairburn and the early Diesel loco) - I assume my cheapest option is to buy 2 MX600R units (with wires?) but suspect they would be soon replaced so what would the sound inclusive option then be??

 

For another time - can earlier non DCC (Bachmann) locos still be converted - possibly by sending away to a specialist??

[grriff]

1 hour ago, halsey said:

I would like to convert 2 to start with (ZIMO) and I don't mind which (probably the Fairburn and the early Diesel loco) - I assume my cheapest option is to buy 2 MX600R units (with wires?) but suspect they would be soon replaced so what would the sound inclusive option then be??

I would advise you to read (if you haven't already done so) the section on 'Which decoder should I use' at http://www.zimo.at/web2010/products/lokdecoder_EN.htm. Zimo generally recommend the MX630. If the early diesel is labeled 21DCC it will need a 21 pin plug, which is not listed for the MX600R. As I said in an earlier post, take off the loco body, check what DCC socket you have and what space is available and then seek advice from a DCC retailer as to the appropriate decoder. I don't have any experience of the Bachmann decoders, but you may also wish to consider these, since they should be compatible with their locos.

[halsey]

Thanks all (again)

 

Anthony at AGR models VERY helpful so I have just bought a Zimo MX600R (8) and an MX638D (21) to get me started on converting my Diesel Loco and Fairburn Tank to play - back to track laying now...………...

 

[newbryford]

13 hours ago, halsey said:

 

 

For another time - can earlier non DCC (Bachmann) locos still be converted - possibly by sending away to a specialist??

 

Although there are many decoder installers out there - there are numerous fitting guides online. Just search "DCC fitting *insert manufacturer and class of loco*" will often turn up something suitable. Be it a picture storyboard or a video.

This is known as hardwiring a decoder

Some are far easier than others. Split chassis types tend to be more difficult.

[dennisfisher]

On 11/11/2019 at 07:59, halsey said:

I'm still here and wondering about DCC

 

 

 

 

 

As the track is being laid is there still a need for isolated joints and again are there more or less of these??

 

You don't need to isolate anything unless you have too many trains for the power output of the controller.

In fact you really want to avoid isolating sidings when the point isn't set to go there so you may want to add extra connections to the sidings if the points do power routing.

 

You probably want to make a programming track to connect to the programming output on the controller, a few straights and a power connector is all you need and it doesn't need to be a part of the layout.

 

On 11/11/2019 at 07:59, halsey said:

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pete the Elaner]

1 hour ago, dennisfisher said:

 

You don't need to isolate anything unless you have too many trains for the power output of the controller.

In fact you really want to avoid isolating sidings when the point isn't set to go there so you may want to add extra connections to the sidings if the points do power routing.

 

Yes & no.

Yes, it is better to have everything live.

In order to achieve this, it may be better to use isolating rail joiners & re-feed afterwards. You should be able to get away without them if using insulfrog points, but feeding electrofrog points from the wrong direction will give you problems. These can often be difficult to troubleshoot.

[halsey]

Just sent off 3 non DCC locos to AGR for conversion - only £20 each (plus decoders) so not bad and suits me.

 

J

[halsey]

If any of you are watching my other thread on layout design the track plan has now been agreed...………………...

 

 

 

………..but I am now collectively being advised to run "bus wires" to include isolating joiners to create 3 switched sections to wire bridges across all fishplates and to make all points/sidings live.

 

I am not in any way complaining about the input/help just the confusion at my end as this is not the "less wiring" solution that I was looking for

 

I am now seriously considering reselling my current £450+ investment in DCC before I commit to it as I don't now see any wiring benefits at all.

 

My physical constraints are a major concern and are already driving wiring above boards (hence laying on 10mm XPS) and needing as few wires/complications as possible as reach is a real issue.

 

If anyone has time could I have advice from a DCC user as to how I need to wire this layout bearing in mind everything is above boards

 

I really do need some advice now as I can easily go either way - the money isn't the issue I need to make the right decision based on the amount of work involved which I thought I had done.

Edited November 28, 2019 by halsey

[Andymsa]

Sorry have to be blunt here again, I have just gone through the whole thread again and it’s been a yo yo experience for you, I get the impression that you have not been fully set on the idea of DCC so let’s see what can be done to settle your concerns.

 

These thoughts relate to your plan in general I wouldn’t go this way but Bering in mind your parameters my thoughts are thus. I would put IRJs at every frog end of the points but not always both rails. Where you have dead end sidings you could put them on frog rails only. It appears your going to only rely on the blades of the point to conduct power ok for the interim but may fail in time, normally I bond these with wires but your trying to keep wiring down. Dispense with a bus and run a bus to each end, not as a ring but in any event your need some form of a bus, even a simple one. Feeders from this bus should go to each toe end of a point. Where you have two parallel tracks just run a jumper from each rail to the next parallel rail. if your putting motors on each point these will need wires so from DC there be no difference. Solder all metal rail joiners. Looking at your plan you would only need one command station and no boosters for trains only not including anything for points. But from what I have read and a quick skim on the other thread these issues would equally apply to DC or DCC so I ask the question should you build anything at all ? But that said if I lived closer I would be happy to help you on this front but there must be a member who’s nearby that can help where you may find it physically hard.

 

to members let’s help this poor chap out as he clearly needs help as he is finding this all daunting and a somewhat uphill struggle.

Edited November 28, 2019 by Andymsa

[Nigelcliffe]

The problem being faced is advice for "best practise", which is to wire every bit of rail.   But, that "best practise" wiring also applies to DC running, plus DC running needs section isolation. 

 

What works for quite a lot of people is along way from "best practise".  All sorts of short-cuts are taken, and, on the whole, stuff still works.  Electrical power by fish-plates, contact via turnout blades, etc..   So long as there is electrical connection, the trains will run - be it DC or DCC.    But, if there is a subsequent fault, then finding and pinning it down to one place can be harder.  
So balance of chances there to worry about.  And how those chances play out depends on, in part, local environment.  A layout in a shed could see temperature swings from -10C to 35C between winter and summer - so rails move, friction joints (fishplates) move.  A layout in a house room might only see a swing of 15 degrees.  A layout in a damp shed has damp to add to things.  Loft & garage layouts see temperature swings similar to sheds, unless the loft/garage has been converted to house-levels of insulation.

 

The only way to avoid wiring is to go to battery running, with wireless control of locos.  Its practical in 4mm/OO, but means a fair bit of modifying stock.  But no wires on the layout. 

 

 

- Nigel