DCC starting out - I'm not a techy but so far its been worth it!

[robertwm3110]

Can I ask a supplemenntary here being somebody also going down the DCC route.  What is the thought on decoders, whose are best?  I am 0 gauge with a number of Heljan locos (single and twin motors) and some DJH factory built stuff. I think its between Zimo and Loksound, or am I missing something.  Or is it the case that all have plusses and minuses???

[Sol]

On 25/10/2019 at 20:49, Sir TophamHatt said:

 

You're not being provocative just speaking the truth!

The Prodigy Advance 2 is a yellowy colour that looks like it's 80's beige left out in the sun too long.

 

I plan to get the ECoS when I have spare monies - but I suspect that'll be in a few years!

 

I guess the USA systems are more designed to be able to physically follow the train around the layout more than the European systems like ECoS which tend to be control of the layout from a central location.

[Oldddudders]

9 minutes ago, Sol said:

 

I guess the USA systems are more designed to be able to physically follow the train around the layout more than the European systems like ECoS which tend to be control of the layout from a central location.

Yes, a central console with Starship Enterprise lights and displays wouldn't work for all of us. I certainly spend a lot of time walking round following trains, so a lightweight radio-equipped handheld suits me. Others would not have the need. 

[Oldddudders]

1 hour ago, robertwm3110 said:

Can I ask a supplemenntary here being somebody also going down the DCC route.  What is the thought on decoders, whose are best?  I am 0 gauge with a number of Heljan locos (single and twin motors) and some DJH factory built stuff. I think its between Zimo and Loksound, or am I missing something.  Or is it the case that all have plusses and minuses???

ESU and Zimo are at the quality end of the market, but lots of people have their own faves from multiple suppliers and generally back their choice with their own experience. Try one or two from your suggested makes and see what you think. 

[Sir TophamHatt]

14 hours ago, robertwm3110 said:

Can I ask a supplemenntary here being somebody also going down the DCC route.  What is the thought on decoders, whose are best?  I am 0 gauge with a number of Heljan locos (single and twin motors) and some DJH factory built stuff. I think its between Zimo and Loksound, or am I missing something.  Or is it the case that all have plusses and minuses???

I have found very little difference between Lenz and Zimo (I buy whatever is cheapest at the time).

For functions only, I use Lais decoders.  They don't play too well with the motor I tried, but do well for lights and stuff.

[boxbrownie]

12 hours ago, Sol said:

 

I guess the USA systems are more designed to be able to physically follow the train around the layout more than the European systems like ECoS which tend to be control of the layout from a central location.

Indeed, with some of the US layouts taking up a whole basement and being many, many yards long a walk around controller is almost obligatory, there are wireless throttles I believe for the ECoS system but hopefully the next iteration of ECoS might have two detachable wireless throttles built in, that seems to be high on the want list at the ECoS official forum.

 

The large display is great for not only showing all the information about the Locos but also the track layout and point operation from the console.

[Ron Ron Ron]

23 hours ago, boxbrownie said:

......there are wireless throttles I believe for the ECoS system but hopefully the next iteration of ECoS might have two detachable wireless throttles built in, that seems to be high on the want list at the ECoS official forum......

ESU also produce non-console based systems, which only have wireless throttles.

Their current “other system” is the ESU CabControl, which uses the same wireless throttle that can be used with the ECoS.

Before that, they used to sell the ESU Navigator, now discontinued, which was their own version of the Bachman Dynamis.  (note: ESU make the Dynamis).

 

Ron

Edited November 1, 2019 by Ron Ron Ron

[Ron Ron Ron]

On 30/10/2019 at 20:45, Sol said:

I guess the USA systems are more designed to be able to physically follow the train around the layout more than the European systems like ECoS which tend to be control of the layout from a central location.

While generally true, there are a couple of US console types systems.

Digitrax Zephyr and the CVP Easy DCC CS2B

 

Also there are quite a number of current and previously produced European walk around, handheld throttle based systems.

e.g.

Roco/Fleischmann Maus,  MultiMaus and z/Z21, 

Uhlenbrock Daisy II

ESU CabControl and Navigator

Piko SmartControl and  SmartControl Light

Bachmann Dynamis, Dynamis Pro and Dynamis Ultima (all are versions of the ESU Navigator)

Digikeijs system

CT Elektronik ZF5 +HR3

 

 

Ron

 

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

ESU also produce non-console based systems, which only have wireless throttles.

Their current “other system” is the ESU CabControl, which uses the same wireless throttle that can be used with the ECoS.

Before that, they used to sell the ESU Navigator, now discontinued, which was their own version of the Bachman Dynamis.  (note: ESU make the Dynamis).

 

Ron

This is true, on the ESU official forum site under the wish list are many requests for the new ECoS console to have detachable wireless throttles each side of the unit, even the present ECoS console looks like it was designed that the throttles detach.......

[Philou]

Hi all,

 

Very interesting discussions and nicely put by Sir Topham.

 

At the club to which I belong, they use the Roco Multimaus with RJ45 plugs (it may come equipped already with the plug) that can be re-plugged at strategic locations around the layout without loss of control of the loco underway - no wireless involved in this instance.

 

For what it's worth, I have an ECoS and I'm seriously looking at recycling a cheapo tablet that I have as an additional unit to enable control elsewhere - either at a fixed location or via Bluetooth ('wireless' in this instance that will allow walk-about). The ECoS talks already to my laptop - but I've only used a Cat5 cable and RJ11 plugs and not tried Bluetooth yet.

 

These options I shall investigate once the layout is up and running.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Pete the Elaner]

Yet another thread which started off with a simple question & has descended into a discussion which is far removed from its original course.

I don't disagree with the discussed points, but there seem to be loads of threads which have been twisted into parallels of almost the same discussion.

if I wanted to find a debate about different systems, I would not be searching in a thread started by someone who obviously wanted simple options.

 

I bet the OP is wishing he had never bothered... That's probably another potential modeller who we have all scared away.

[halsey]

55 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Yet another thread which started off with a simple question & has descended into a discussion which is far removed from its original course.

I don't disagree with the discussed points, but there seem to be loads of threads which have been twisted into parallels of almost the same discussion.

if I wanted to find a debate about different systems, I would not be searching in a thread started by someone who obviously wanted simple options.

 

I bet the OP is wishing he had never bothered... That's probably another potential modeller who we have all scared away.

Don't worry not scared away - IMHO most forums/topics suffer from this problem.

Quite simply DCC isn't for me as if the debate has shown anything its that it is far from straightforward and very techy - not my scene.

Modelling is not affected I shall carry on in the dark ages and be happy doing so - and £00's better off!!

[Pete the Elaner]

Just now, halsey said:

Don't worry not scared away - IMHO most forums/topics suffer from this problem.

Quite simply DCC isn't for me as if the debate has shown anything its that it is far from straightforward and very techy - not my scene.

Modelling is not affected I shall carry on in the dark ages and be happy doing so - and £00's better off!!

It doesn't have to be techy. The thread (as many do) seems to have gone off in a tangent discussing various things, none of which need to be considered if you are not interested.

 

But I get the impression you feel that by asking the question before choosing DC, you have eliminated any doubt you may have of possibly using the 'wrong' system.

Surely that is a good thing?

[grriff]

How techy is techy? My neighbour, who is not techy has an extensive DCC layout (NCE) but has to my ask help in fitting decoders and resetting the loco number from its default of 3. Otherwise he has no problems although he is not using DCC to its full capabilities.

I have a much smaller layout using a SprogII controller bought off ebay linked to JMRI software running on a laptop. It's a cheap introduction (and better than a hand held controller with limited display IMHO) but the SprogII is only suitable for one loco. However, I enjoy techy stuff.

In short, you can't totally avoid techy stuff with DCC.

[GridNorth]

I too am just starting out, unlike you I do understand electrics and computers but to start with I don't think you need to know about either.  When I was investigating layouts and baseboards there was loads of contradicting and downright misleading information.  Now I've settled on both of these elements I've started to research DCC and control.  As far as I can tell it is not necessary to run any wiring whatsoever until such time that your layout grows and even then it's probably advisable rather than mandatory at least for the track.  Motorised points and signals are another matter. Not wishing to offend anyone but one problem I'm discovering with railway modelling is that there are loads of people who have been at it for years and dare I say may have become a little set in their ways and still proposing old fashioned solutions. I wouldn't hesitate to go DCC and if you do end up having to wire things it's honestly not that hard.

 

Al

[boxbrownie]

Be careful, too much sense causes confusion 

[grriff]

On 21/10/2019 at 09:20, halsey said:

Hi

Is there an idiots guide to DCC - I'm not a great one for reading as I much prefer "doing" but just thought I'd ask as I do need to gain knowledge - perhaps there is a good web reference??

All contributions appreciated

Thanks

Getting back to your original question, try the free book from MERG https://www.merg.org.uk/ebook.php. It's  probably more than you need but you can always miss out the parts which are too technical.

[boxbrownie]

5 minutes ago, grriff said:

Getting back to your original question, try the free book from MERG https://www.merg.org.uk/ebook.php. It's  probably more than you need but you can always miss out the parts which are too technical.

I would have thought that eBook from MERG is much more than the OP needs and will most likely just confuse matters.

[rockershovel]

I got involved with DCC because I was intrigued with the concept. If you just want to run trains without all the work of block wiring etc, it's great. The sounds are great, too. 

 

If you aren't well versed in the technical side, or (like me) simply don't know, can't solder accurately or just don't care, buy a pair of headphones and some dark glasses. The first time anyone starts talking about MERG and all the other business, put them on until they go away. There are a group at my club who are into this sort of thing, you'd think they were NASA subcontractors. The main thing I notice is that their system is constantly under some sort of maintenance or modification, and nobody else knows how it works at all. 

 

Here are a few tips no-one else seem to have covered;

 

1) the NEC Cab Controller is the more versatile of the two most commonly used units. Once you get the hang of it, it is easier to use. 

2) the Gaugemaster one is easier at first sight, but after some experience I reckon NEC is better in certain respects. 

3) the plugs are NOT interchangeable. Once you start with one, you have to change the wiring to change, if that's what you want. 

4) don't fiddle about installing chips etc, unless that's really what you want to do. There are people who do this, know what they are doing and get it right, and their expertise is worth paying for. 

5) If a loco is advertised as "DCC ready", buy the chip and get the supplier to fit it. Then you know it works! 

6) beware of short circuits when wiring the track up. These are usually caused by not correctly identifying the polarity of rails in odd corners of the layout, as I saw demonstrated a while ago at the club. 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by rockershovel

[boxbrownie]

21 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

I got involved with DCC because I was intrigued with the concept. If you just want to run trains without all the work of block wiring etc, it's great. The sounds are great, too. 

 

If you aren't well versed in the technical side, or (like me) simply don't know, can't solder accurately or just don't care, buy a pair of headphones and some dark glasses. The first time anyone starts talking about MERG and all the other business, put them on until they go away. There are a group at my club who are into this sort of thing, you'd think they were NASA subcontractors. The main thing I notice is that their system is constantly under some sort of maintenance or modification, and nobody else knows how it works at all. 

 

Here are a few tips no-one else seem to have covered;

 

1) the NEC Cab Controller is the more versatile of the two most commonly used units. Once you get the hang of it, it is easier to use. 

2) the Gaugemaster one is easier at first sight, but after some experience I reckon NEC is better in certain respects. 

3) the plugs are NOT interchangeable. Once you start with one, you have to change the wiring to change, if that's what you want. 

4) don't fiddle about installing chips etc, unless that's really what you want to do. There are people who do this, know what they are doing and get it right, and their expertise is worth paying for. 

5) If a loco is advertised as "DCC ready", buy the chip and get the supplier to fit it. Then you know it works! 

6) beware of short circuits when wiring the track up. These are usually caused by not correctly identifying the polarity of rails in odd corners of the layout, as I saw demonstrated a while ago at the club. 

 

 

 

As to short circuits, I think if just starting to lay track on a new layout a good investment is one of the “track testers” which can be purchased for little money, very handy for checking all the sparky bits are in the right place before running a Loco.

[rockershovel]

24 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

 

As to short circuits, I think if just starting to lay track on a new layout a good investment is one of the “track testers” which can be purchased for little money, very handy for checking all the sparky bits are in the right place before running a Loco.

 

Yes, but.... no, not really. Short circuits sometimes appear as “nothing works”, because the circuit breaker of the transformer trips out, or the wires to the track connector overheat.

 

London Underground (who have a signalling system worked by low voltage currents in the running rails) used to have a whole suite of drawings in which the rails were drawn red and blue. It sounds crude but it’s very effective. 

 

[WIMorrison]

50 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

 

As to short circuits, I think if just starting to lay track on a new layout a good investment is one of the “track testers” which can be purchased for little money, very handy for checking all the sparky bits are in the right place before running a Loco.

 

Personally I would suggest you are better investing your money is a multimeter, will do what these 'track testers' do and a whole lot more

[boxbrownie]

25 minutes ago, rockershovel said:

 

Yes, but.... no, not really. Short circuits sometimes appear as “nothing works”, because the circuit breaker of the transformer trips out, or the wires to the track connector overheat.

 

London Underground (who have a signalling system worked by low voltage currents in the running rails) used to have a whole suite of drawings in which the rails were drawn red and blue. It sounds crude but it’s very effective. 

 

I was really referring to the tester being used when laying the track “to avoid” short circuits by checking as you go.

[boxbrownie]

4 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

 

Personally I would suggest you are better investing your money is a multimeter, will do what these 'track testers' do and a whole lot more

And some people just want it a bit simpler.

[RAF96]

8 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

And some people just want it a bit simpler.

 

That’s why they took all the useful gauges out of cars in the 60’s + and replaced them with ‘idiot’ lights.

A track tester will tell you its working or not, but a multi-meter will let you work out why.